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S/N as Space/Time awareness

Decided that the best way to frame the perception perspectives is simply

S=SPACE
N=TIME

Where S was said by Jung to “register reality as real” or cover “what is”, N was connected to time; “where it’s heading”. This does not explicitly mention space for S, but when you think of it, all sensory perception is spatial. We see or hear waves that come to us through space, smell particles that float to us through space, and touch and taste things we reach out for through space. This occurs in time as well, but all the perceived objects are experienced through space. Time is where occurs the “idea” of them and the “possibilities” of where they can go. I got into this a bit here: https://erictb.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/another-crack-at-function-definitions-relationships-of-objects/#comment-1962
Like you can have a tangible unit like a building or even our bodies, but if every part (or our cells) are replaced one by one, then is it still the same material? What passes down through time is really an “idea” that the tangible “here and now” parts simply make up instant by instant. Matter itself may actually be waveforms that transfer from one string to another as the forces of acceleration or inertia “push” all the energy of the string from one location to the next, relative to other objects. The best way to think of this is a moving image on a screen of pixels. Nothing’s actually “moving” except an “image”, conveying, essentially, an “idea” programmed into the electronic circuits. Again, functions are by nature “mixed together” or “undifferentiated in reality, and only separated out by our consciousness.
Hence, both S and N are involved in these examples. But to divide them, S is the spatial (random access) aspect, while N is the sequential (causative) aspect.

So, “What is” refers to what is sitting there in space, while what “could be” implies a time element; what could take on a tangible shape in the future, or even what could have been, in the past.

So now, to factor in the attitudes, extraversion deals in the “environment“, while introversion is about the individual. Both space and time consist of linear “dimensions”, of biploar “directions”, by which every conscious entity immersed in it divides reality. (And I’ve been expressing the functions and attitudes themselves as divisions of reality). Space has three (randomly accessible, again), and time has one, which is one way.

So Se is basically what you experience in the immediate environment, as you look out into any of the three dimensions of space. Again, the visual and audial waves, olfactory particles, and gustatory and tactile contact.

Si is the same spatial data, but stored individually in memory.

So Ne then involves what you experience when following the chain of occurrences when looking through the dimension of time. Its inferences occur along this time line (its “environment”). Hence, what “could” happen. Also, following past patterns, and continuing their trajectories to get a sense of what will happen. (Of course, things can change, and so Ne remains “open”).

So then Ni (what I devised all of this to continue to try to get a better understanding of and way of expressing) also looks at the dimension of time, but its inferences do not come from the timeline, but rather from the individual, which is the unconscious. This is the domain of the “archetypal” (images that are collective, and not tied directly to our external experience), and what do we often describe archetypal images as? “Timeless“! (meaning pervasive through time; not on our individual timeline of experience).

So, for the perception attitudes, space and time are the corresponding “environments” that define the extraverted perspective. Introversion, (just like the stereotypical picture of an “introvert”) withdraws from this, to the individual perspective, to conjure up images either of spatial reality, or temporal patterns.

The way this was once described to me, was that N overall dealt with patterns or the salient points of a pattern that can be abstracted from one situation to give meaning to another, transferring the acquired patterns to new contexts, largely unconsciously, in order to get the gist of a subject; and operating by inferring from a few elements some larger arrangement in which they’re characteristically included. Ne attempts to understand a situation (or otherwise disparate external elements) in terms of a pattern (the larger arrangement that give them meaning; and also “stored in memory”), while Ni begins with and looks outside of the pattern (the existing arrangement of elements) and infers what’s being left out; what it doesn’t take into account.

This was helping me get a better understanding of the difference, but for some reason wasn’t totally clicking. Me, in my Ti fashion, needed a better system of parallel, like S, T and F all handle the same things (tangible, mechanical and anthropic or “soul”-related), but the “e” attitude determines what “is”, is “true” or is “good” from the environment, while the “i” attitudes determines them from within the individual.

The obvious word I took notice of for N was “pattern”, and it was tempting to simply define “N=patterns“. But I held off from that, because for one thing, “patterns” could be sensory as well, such as a “pattern” on a fabric, or music. (Actually, these, especially the latter, are timelike as well as spatial/tangible, and with visual patterns, you can think of them as timelike, in it requires time to compare one part to another and see the markings look the same).
Also, because I thought the general N description, and Ne sounded similar: involving comparing or transferring one thing to another and the “larger arrangement that gives them meaning”. (But of course Ni deals in this latter part; the so-called “big picture” too. And I had to think whether the “pattern” referred to the “larger arrangement” for one or both attitudes, or if the “larger arrangement” was what’s outside the pattern, or if both the initial thing and what it was being compared to were both “patterns” and “larger arrangements” in this particular description, etc.).
And Ne dealt directly with the external pattern, making me think then that Ni was inferring from a “subjective pattern” (such as the “templates” I mentioned in my earlier descriptions of Ni). But instead, it looks “outside” a pattern.

So what really was the common “element” or “product” that tied together both attitudes of iNtuition? It’s clearly not the “pattern” itself. If anything, it made Ne sound internal (“patterns stored in memory“, which also makes one think of Si) and Ni sound external (“outside the pattern”).
Really, the problem in distinguishing Ne vs Ni was the need to determine what exactly the “environment” of iNuition was to begin with! (It was obvious for S, T and F, and so what happened was that we assume the same “environment”, often called “the outer world” held true for N. But what really did that mean; especially since iNtuition is all technically “internal”, and imagines possibilities for things on the external world?)

So upon reading Beebe’s book, where he pointed out Jung associated N specifically with time, that got me thinking more about it. (Also, even more recently, in reviewing The Iceman Inheritance, where time was mentioned as the awareness that came with our sapience as developed hominids).
In my view, space and time together make up sort of a partial “trinity” reflection, with space comparable to the “Son” who appeared physically in space, and the invisible “Spirit” who afterward came over the time since, to indwell man. I for some reason had not directly associated S with “space”, because I realized time was involved as well. But just in the past few days, “trying on the idea”, it really fits!

Ne’s patterns “stored in memory” by which it actually does its looking down through the dimension of time is precisely what makes it work with its opposite tandem mate, Si. Hence, both are associated in the new “Intentional Styles” model, with “Inquiring”; which is basically going mentally through (e) time (N) to access previous (i) spatial experience (S).
Se’s immediate (e) space (S) orientation then works with Ni’s immediate “outside (i) the [timelike(N)] pattern” awareness, and hence are called “Realizing”.

Lenore had defined Ni in the book (p223) as “liberate our sense impressions from their larger context, thereby creating more options for perception itself“, which might be hard for non-Ni types to really grasp. The timeline idea explains it. The “larger context” is what occurs in the time dimension, but the “unconscious impressions” are from outside of the time dimension, and so you can get more kinds of interpretations than what were available in the temporal environment.
The example given is raising the question in one’s mind of the possible reasons a suntan is valued by people today, when the original circumstances that gave it its meaning have changed. Again, we see the time element of this, and the pondering steps outside of this timeline to raise the question of why it’s still considered attractive.
(Likewise, “perspectives” is the single word nickname Personality Hacker gives to Ni, and they describe it as “not married to its own perspective”, and “watching your mind form patterns”, and eventually, over time, you’re going to get the ‘pattern of the pattern'” [hence, “meta-awareness”], and so when listening to another person they can shift out of their own perspective and into the other person’s perspective and get a sense of what’s going on with them, and be able to guess “I bet this is the pattern created in the other person’s mind”, so it looks like reading their mind. These would be the “internal connections” corresponding to Ne’s “external connections” They also describe Ne as asking “what if” and Ni as asking “why”?).

So Ni is like Fi in thinking “if that were me, I would…”; Fi says “feel this way”, and Ni says “perceive it this way”. This affinity is why both are so “deep” and the hardest to understand or explain. Both N and F are the most complex as their products only have meaning to sapient beings, where S and T is “what is”, whether anyone is there to perceive or assess it or not.
I would also say if you consciously compare patterns, that’s Ne, while a feeling more like a premonition of what something means, or what will happen is Ni.
(For me, when the premonition is good, I don’t trust it; when it’s bad; I try to resist and fight against the outcome playing out in life,or I just go with it and become totally down and pessimistic).

Looking at the temporal patterns limits us to what we can see from them, where we can’t see the future, and so the possibilities in the environment remain “open”. A lot of different things “could” happen. Looking outside the pattern is “open” in an internal sense, as you don’t have to rely on patterns of experience. However, it ends up creating less “open” environmental possibilities, and also working with extraverted judgment, which makes the observations and solutions more “closed”.

As Ni looks “outside the pattern” to access the unconscious, Si could likewise be seen as looking “outside the immediate [material] environment” to access the stored images of experienced tangible reality.

So if we make the S/N environment “space/time”, then by extension, T/F could be something like things vs people (i.e.“social”). (And we are also still “things”, hence we can be looked at through a T lens).

So:
space—time—things—people = the environment of reality
tangible—potential—mechanical—anthropic = our immersion in reality

More examples of N=time:

Typology; patterns of behavior observed through time.

Numbers: represent hypothetical sensate objects in space (like if we see three groups of three items, and we know the total is really nine objects sitting in space), but when we begin representing them with numerals and operator symbols, we have turned them into ideas that only work through time.

Bruzon (“Fundamental Nature of MBTI”) description of N as the “motion” component (represented as a whole grid) while S was the “static” objects on the grid.

I once read about tests that had been done in type classes, of showing an image of a triangle with horizontal bands. With a surprising amount of consistency, the Sensates describe it just like this, or as a three-sided plane with parallel bands. The Intuitives say they see a railroad track or a striped dunce cap. Each side can see why the other described it the way they did, but the S’s heard: “What are the properties of this image?” and N’s heard “What does this image mean to you?”; that is, what pattern is it like in your tacit memory?
This is timelike in that these “patterns”, again, are constructs formed over time, where the S’s simply described exactly what they saw in space.

I had begun using the term “implications”/”inferences”, in addition to “conceptual”, “ideational”, “mental constructs”, “filling in”, “intangible” etc.; and implications and inferences point through time (which is intangible in the moment) via the mental ideation and constructing and filling in processes used to become aware of them.

“The big picture” also, is in practice timelike, as it’s something that “comes together” or basically revealed in time. Ni deals with an existing “big picture” by “filling it in from the images of the unconscious. Ne forms its sense of the “big picture” by putting together the “objective” patterns, stored in memory, filling in the patterns with fitting elements of each other. Both the “putting together” and “memory” are technically “internal”, to the “subject”, which is what made this confusing; but it is in the dimension of time, not space, that they are external objects!
So about Ne sounding like N in general; N can be described as grasping a pattern that two otherwise disparate situations have in common, and gambles that the new situation is going to operate in the same general way as the one already known. First, here we see the clear time element; the predictive sense; based on “patterns” that themselves deal in some kind of “motion” (change) that is not necessarily spatial. Both Ne and Ni do this, but Ne simply looks along time at the motion component (whether temporal, spatial, or just mental) of the pattern to make the “guess”, while Ni references the archetypal images to gain something more like a “hunch”.

So to do the completed function attitudes:

Se awareness of objects in space is stimulated by the environment (as it emerges in the external world)
Si awareness of objects in space is stimulated by individual reference (filtered through internal recollection)
Ne awareness of patterns through time is stimulated by the environment (one pattern implies another “externally”)
Ni awareness of patterns through time is stimulated by individual reference (looks outside the pattern to the internal subconscious)

Since all of science (including psychology) realizes naturally that we deal in space and time (in addition to impersonal mechanics, and personal affect), putting for the functions in these terms (again, one or the other preferred by our divisions of reality) would have a better chance of proving the theory is not some ridiculous idea like astrology.

(I also thought, if S as space corresponds to the Son and N as time corresponds to the Spirit, then what corresponds to the Father? It would be the “transcendent function” of course, which would correspond to what I’ve considered the Farther-like continuum, or “Patrix”, the “chance” medium. But that’s on the axis of S and N. What about T/F, which is the other axis the transcendent function lies between? I would think T would be more material, like the Son, and F, dealing with “the heart” as like the Spirit. I had considered T=”matter” and F=”soul”, but I used “material” for S; and again, this shows that both S and T deal in “what it is” in their own ways; and “soul” could include animals, but they don’t have a Feeling “function”; it’s all instinct for them, and though I use “soul-affect” for F, this does extend to animals, inasmuch as we relate to them and their emotions. But without our sapience, F would have no meaning).

I’ve also been informed that Socionics considers S as space and N as time (and T as “objects” and F as “energy”) http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/dlja-novichkov/aspekty.

An example of Ne’s time orientation:

Like I liked to look at possible subway service patterns, and was particularly interested years ago, when the Manhattan Bridge was stuck, seemingly forever, in the “north side tracks open only” configuration, allowing the 6th Avenue traffic to run over the bridge, but not Broadway. So the Broadway “Q” was moved to 6th Avenue, while the express “N” was moved to the Montague tunnel, where it could access the Broadway line, but as a local and via a much longer path. The next phase of the work was to close the north side, and reopen the south side, allowing the Broadway expresses to cross, but not the 6th Avenue service. It had switched from this pattern several years before, but since this was initially planned to be temporary, they created a makeshift arrangement where the 6th Ave. B and D service ran in two sections; one rerouted to Broadway, and terminating at one of its terminals in Manhattan or Queens, and the uptown halves already on 6th, from uptown, terminating at 34th At. The two halves actually overlapped between 34th and 57th, so that you had two separate routes with the same letter, and different route colors running through midtown Manhattan. I thought this was an incredibly sloppy arrangement.
But then when I found out that there was a time when 6th Avenue didn’t connect to the bridge at all (the north side used to connect to Broadway, and the south side, to the now severed Nassau St. loop, which had very little service as it was), and that the old service pattern included a “T” train that was replaced by the “B” I was familiar with, and a “family of “Q”‘s replaced by the D, and the primary Nassau service was on the West End, much the way the M had been moved from the Brighton to the West End, so that was similar also; I got the idea for the next time to just restore that old pattern and the letter “T” instead of a second “B”, and since the Q locals used double letters, which were no longer used, then the new Brighton local would be “U”, because it sounds like “Q”, is used with “q” in written language, and the lines were really just an express and local version of the same line, not going anywhere different, like when a 6th Avenue and Broadway line run there.

I took the pattern from one situation, and moved it to a similar situation according to the infrastructure, and then forecasted what “could” be done. This also involved judgment, in determining from an internal framework what would be “correct” (different lines should each have their own letter, and letters should be allocated to the same line, even if unused for a long time).
But in organizational decisions, the judgment that wins out is usually Te, based on environmental criteria including “efficiency” and rider demand; often decided by running the data through computer analysis. Apparently, the Brighton had much more demand, so both of its services had to continue to use the bridge (unlike the original BMT pattern, where it had one bridge and one tunnel route on weekdays), and it needed no tunnel service anymore, and so it had the priority over the N, which remained relegated to the “rathole” as one irate Sea Beach transit fan always called the tunnel.

Thankfully, however, the same “environmental” criteria; this time, rider confusion, led them to eliminate the “split” B and D, which had already had provisions on the new signs, with both orange and yellow sets of both routes. Instead, they used an existing “W” (which was allocated on the signs for the Whitehall St. short line service it appears as today) for the West End, and came up with a “diamond Q” sign for the Brighton express (since they had decided diamonds would now only be used for express versions of local lines that run at the same time; the only other examples now being on the 6 and 7. While I had also had ideas for a dreaded “bridge fully closed” scenario (that looked like a real possibility throughout the whole time), and we imagined what the final “bridge fully open” scenario” could be like, as it turned out, the B and D would not even return to their old lines when the work was finished, but actually switch places).

I’m not sure how Ni would handle this. From what I heard, it would gather a final conclusion, and “work its way backward” to find holes in the pattern and see which way the data “wants” to go, which I imagine would then be assessed for the correct course of action with Te. The decisions of Transit are basically Te+S (with computers doing the “timelike forecasting” work, and decisions based off of the “tangible” spatially perceived data produced).

So we see how it’s all timelike, in comparing the patterns over time, and what could be done in time. Those “patterns” in this case also involve the routing of trains, moving from one place to another

Farewell to my Childhood’s Resident Celebrity

R.I.P. legendary Persuasions’ singer Jimmy Hayes
https://www.soultracks.com/story-jimmy-hayes-dies

They were a somewhat known a-capella group, and while perhaps not well known in younger pop circles, were at least big enough to guest-star for the backgrounds for Stevie Wonder’s “Please Don’t Go”, the closing track of Fulfillingness First Finale.
A couple years after that; I would say at least by ’76 or ’77, he and a few others from the group moved to the block I grew up on (and I believed that was where he still was; for the rest of his life; I would sometimes ask when visiting, and last time, a few years ago, was told he was still there), so they were like the resident celebrities.
We knew each other pretty well, and he would often be around, like when everyone was outside, and the adults would sit on the sidelines, or be in the superintendent’s shop or someone’s house, either hanging out, or playing cards. They even had my father and I and a few others go to the Electric Lady c.1978, to watch them rehearse. (My only time in the studio! It was also one of Stevie’s “homes” back in the Contract 2 era that ended with FFF. Marveled at the odd looking façade shape. Jimmy actually teased me there that night by announcing on the mic he was going to give me some T-shirt with an unhappy frog saying “I’m so happy, I could s___”; IIRC may well have looked like a forerunner to today’s “Pepe”; I was embarrassed because I had been conditioned to shun curse words!)

Since he worked with Stevie once; I thought it so interesting that I was only “two degrees of separation” from him! (Around the same time, the block and the neighboring lot on Flatbush where some stores burned down years before, and we used to play stickball, used to be visited by some older guy who was supposedly the father of “Thelma” on Good Times! Made me excited that I was only three degrees away from Janet Jackson, who played on the show and had become my dream girl when she greatly “blossomed” on the following show, Diff’rent Strokes).

From Evangelical Protestant “orthodoxy” to Eastern (Greek) “Orthodoxy”: Leading Apologist Converts to the original “Historic Church”

I’m over a month late on this, and the big clue was the CRI e-mail about the question of whether president Hank Hanegraaf “left the faith” http://www.equip.org/article/left-christian-faith. I get these in a side-email that I only read on the phone, usually on breaks at work. For some reason, I brushed it off, thinking maybe it was some late April Fool’s joke, or perhaps some radical movement saying he’s gotten too soft on some point of doctrine or morality or something (like IFB’s have long said CRI was too soft on Catholics and “separation”; the “psychoheresy” critics say he has “compromised” in the issue of “counseling”; the KJVO’s of course will think he errs on translations, etc). I was still getting CRI/Equip e-mails from him, so he wasn’t ousted from that organization. I think I did actually glance at that article, and all it was, was him reaffirming the universal doctrines of the “historic Church” that he always championed: The deity of Christ, original sin, the Church and the scriptures, the Trinity, Jesus as incarnate savior, salvation by “grace through faith”, making one a “new creation”, and the resurrection of the dead and the life to come.

So on that same side e-mail, today, where I also get notifications from the old Baptistboard about ongoing threads, I see a new one saying directly, “Hank Hanegraaff Converts to Greek Orthodox”. In it, someone points out the topic was already covered, in a month old thread matching his own blog article, “Has Hank Hanagraaf left the faith?”. (Both of these were in “Baptist only” sections which always seem to have the most interesting topics, but non-Baptists are not allowed to post there). Now, I find on CRI his direct Q&A about Orthodoxy: http://www.equip.org/questions-answers-orthodoxy/ There was a link to this on the other page, but I thought “Ask Hank: Questions and Answers About Orthodoxy” meant what he formerly considered “orthodoxy”: evangelical Protestant “orthodoxy”!
Wow!

It was right there on the BB, over a decade ago, where I had heavily debated several Eastern Orthodox believers, and some Catholics. (One EOC “catechumen” was for some reason rejected from admission, and ended up Anglican instead. There was another Anglican as well, and they argued on the side of “catholicism” on most of the points, especially Eucharist and “tradition”). For a time, they had swarmed the board, and gotten pretty aggressive, until the mods began cracking down on it. This is what led me to put up a page answering “Catholic” arguments, and consisting in part (the second half) of the key points copied from those very debates: http://www.erictb.info/tradition.html

To reprint the opening text:
I myself always looked with interest at the Eastern Orthoodox Church, since becoming acquainted with the claims of an “original true Church” through the literature of the Church of Christ years ago, and then finding similar claims by the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism), Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even some Baptists use it. I always found the claims of those groups being preserved through such small sects as the Waldensians, Catharii, and Anabaptists to be farfetched, as those groups were vastly different from these modern groups. I quickly realized that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches had more of a stake to that claim, since they were the historical “Church” stemming from the original Churches planted by the Apostles. And I further figured out that the EOC has an even greater claim than the RCC, because the latter was actually one single patriarchate of the original five of the Church, which broke off because it was continuing to add new doctrines the other four patriarchates did not accept.

Still, I do not believe that the EOC of the 11th century and after was the same as the first century Church either, as is assumed by EOC advocates. However, some have now begun to become aggressive in claiming to be the true Church, and condemning Protestantism and “sola Scriptura”, “with its thousands of splinter groups”, instead of “just following the [oral, apostolic] traditions of the Church”. Many of those groups that claim to be the original Church had a point in pointing out that the Church rapidly began changing after the death of the apostles. You can even see the warnings of apostasy in the writings of the apostles themselves.

This reflects a time just before I started moving toward the Fulfilled View, and so still believing the “end” was future, and that the “falling away” was something starting in the first century, and continuing down through all of Church history, to our time and beyond. It was these debates, including the point that was mentioned, of all the “thousands of splinter groups”, that made me finally grow weary of futurism. Yes, that fit into the so-called “falling away” it was plugged into, but it fell so far away that nobody can really agree on much of anything regarding what the truth of scripture is; everyone just claims to be scriptural and reads their doctrines into scripture, and it seemed anyone could make scripture say anything they wanted. There’s no longer any central [spiritual] body representing the original truth like there was under the apostles, though some organizations are claiming to be that body; again, reading their doctrines and institutional structures into scripture.
So it seemed like that “body” was never designed to go on through centuries of changing leadership and political influence, and without the supernaturally guided original apostles. It was only designed to last a “short time”, —which is precisely what we see promised by Jesus Himself and the apostles!
So when the preterists next began to turn the volume up on their doctrine on the board, I likewise fought hard against that, but later found the “pantelist” variation or “Fulfilled view”, and it all finally clicked. It’s the only thing that explains why God would allow “His Church” to spiral out of control like this, as the watching world takes it as the ultimate evidence that the whole religion is just a human fabrication.

Anyways, Hanegraaf’s move would mean he no longer believes in at least two of the “core essentials” he once defended, of Grace alone through faith alone, and “sola scriptura”. (Even though he did claim to still believe in the former). The “Catholic/Orthodox” position on the role of “works” in “faith” is similar to that of several of the “cults”, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, radical sabbatarians such as Armstrongism, and the Church of Christ.

As he was the de-facto number one “apologist” for the general body of evangelical “orthodoxy” (as understood in the “Protestant” form), this is very surprising. So the perhaps next leading evangelical apologist, James White of Alpha & Omega ministries, quickly began commenting on it.
https://youtu.be/ezaECk7cBQs (this video even shows the tweet of Hanegraaf being received into the Church via chrismation!)
You would think the two ministries would be pretty much in lockstep agreement on most doctrines; since they uphold the “basics” of evangelical doctrine, but apparently, there was a bit of a light “falling out” between the two fourteen years ago, when White realized it would be his last invitation to the Bible Answer Man, as he described what he calls a pre-planned “ambush” to promote “synergism” (which is basically the technical term for “free-will” cooperation in salvation), which he says “backfired” on the hosts. White is of course, solidly Calvinist (monergistic), where Hanegraaf always seemed to be more neutral on that dispute. (I can remember him describing a “racist” attack, when some hyper-charismatic “revival” leader whom he had denounced fired back something about him being an “intellectual Calvinist” or something like that, which was assumed simply from him having a Dutch background).

White addresses the issue of the “catholic” definition of “faith” in this second video on the subject: https://youtu.be/F5EPs9EqIsc He points out how the single word “alone”, as in “grace/faith alone” makes a big difference. Removing it and substituting something like “faith working through love” (taking from Paul in Galatians, but using it differently from what he originally meant), as a Catholic he cites does, “opens the door” to the entire sacrificial system of Rome, and all the doctrines that go with that (baptismal regeneration, different kinds of sin, etc. Already, Hanegraaf can be heard in a clip talking about how [canonized] saints pray for us, though he says we can’t pray to them. White shows how the still professed “sola scriptura” is actually redefined, and around 20 minutes in excellently points out how the EOC “traditions” were “frozen” or “fossilized” in the 6th, 7th and 8th centuries [and not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd], by the threat of the rise and rule of Islam, which forced them to maintain “this is what we believe and we must defend it”; where the Western Church had the freedom and increased power to continue developing its doctrine).

I’m actually not as totally surprised as you think I would be. He is so into the “historic” aspect of the “faith”; “historicity” seemed to always be the ultimate arbiter of doctrinal matters, including how to interpret scripture, which is of course the official final authority, but as we see all too often, does get interpreted differently by nearly everyone. I always pictured him having a soft spot for some form of “catholicity” (which again, he was always criticized for not being hard enough on. He does have articles on “Catholicism” http://www.equip.org/category/catholicism, but these seem to be more focused on the specific Roman branch of catholicism. Again, the EOC doesn’t have quite the same stigma as the RCC; as it didn’t add some of the really bad doctrines like purgatory, indulgences, etc. Also, it not being as familiar here in the West. It was the RCC that Protestantism broke away from).

This is truly a major shift in evangelicalism!

Review: Bradley “The Iceman Inheritance”

The Iceman Inheritance Micael Bradley
©1978 Michael Bradley; originally published by Dorset Publishing, Inc.; reading 1991 Kayode Publications (New York) 1st printing

Figured I should finally read this and review it, since I have thought of and mentioned its premise a lot over the years. I first saw this IIRC in the 90’s. My family had it, and my father was talking about it, IIRC. It was a printing I can’t find now, where the cover showed an actual man made of ice, displaying a very aggressive looking expression.

The premise was that the rough environment of Ice Age Europe is what led “Western” civilizations to be overall “aggressive”, leading to their conquest of much of the world. The very first words; the “contention” (also the title of Part One), “This book is racist!” The irony being that the race being critiqued (“I will attempt to show that racism is a predisposition of but once race of Mankind…”) is the white race, and and by a white Canadian author!
Already hearing so much of what’s now called “dog whistling” rhetoric for over a decade back then, which extolled the virtues of the White Western Christian civilization, contrasted with the “laziness” of the black race (now encoded as “Western/American exceptionalism”), and developing a presentation of the Gospel as teaching all men are equal (made in God’s image), but “fallen” into being “sinful” (though in different manifestations often), it made sense as an a great proof of the Bible teaching.

But when I glanced at it, I found it full of discussion of prehistory and particularly evolutionary theory, such as frequent mention of the “Neanderthals”. While I was never a solid [young earth] “Creationist”, I at that point did not know what to make of either theory, and while opposing the conspiratorial rhetoric and rigid literalism of the more fundamentalistic creationists; I still was not ready to really deal with taking the problem as far back as neanderthals (pre-homosapiens or “mankind” proper; think: “cavemen” who are seemingly half-ape). I wanted something that placed man’s problems with “the Fall” into sin, that occurred in our current homo-sapiens state.
So I basically put it aside, and eventually gave the book away.

My mother later is given another one; the copy I have now, with the standard cover showing a hand smashing something with a rock. (This could also be found on Afrocentric book tables on the street). One time, later, when she was giving away books, including this one, I this time decided to keep it. So it sat on my shelf for years.

Forward to today’s political climate, where the more radical racists are coming out into the open, dubbed the “alt-right” (even to the point of denouncing the old dog-whistlers for their indirect language, which they call “cuckery”), and boldly pitching white supremacy in contrast to black “pathology”. They dress down all of our “problems”, and put together patterns of bad character, as I have cited in Makers-Takers and think nothing of how they could happen to end up in the “good” group. It’s just “fact” and “truth”, supported by statistics. As far back as the old writings on the Right Wing, I had cited the premise of the book, and pointed out that what is being pointed at in the black community is basically the same effect on a smaller scale. The rough environments we’ve been placed in has made us more aggressive; hence all the much touted “crime” in the cities. So we’re proven to be essentially all the same, just like the Gospel teaches!
This is basically the liberal response to everything, from crime, to even the genetic “bell curve” hypothesis, which had actually reared its head again in that mid 90’s period. But the alt-right just dismisses this, and focuses on what’s seen now, in the statistics, deeming the blacks “insoluble”, and going as far as to criticize the nation and its founders for bringing us here in the first place, and even dismissing the Constitution. (So the other conservatives who uphold those things are seen as betraying the race in favor of country, hence likening it to “cuckolding”!)

Meanwhile, life seems to be getting rougher and rougher (for the average person), both economically, and organizationally (like how litigiousness causes agencies like mine to pile more and more rules and harsher penalties for breaking them), with those on the top (in power) gaining more and more, exponentially!
And all of this is justified with the rhetoric of “rugged individualism”, where this is just the way “nature” is; basically Darwinism’s “natural selection” being true socio-economically, (even to the staunch Creationists who blamed “Darwinism” for the fall of the nation!) and the poor and weak are always to blame for not “pulling their bootstraps”. Those who make it to the top are uncritically assumed to have an almost blameless character (and thus, the only ones who have “earned” their “freedom”, and thus should have almost no regulation in how they rule over others).

I kept finding myself more and more saying how they are creating a practical “Ice Age”, where it’s “dog eat dog” and survival of the fittest. This came to mind especially when watching Zeitgeist, with its discussion of the illusion of “scarcity” presented while there’s really an “abundance” being hoarded away. This is basically the survival instinct of an environment like a frozen wilderness, where you have to keep taking, storing, taking, storing… etc.; not because you really need it right now, but just in case you run out and can’t get any more. That is how the corporate world is geared, and passing it down to everyone else. And the aggression used to acquire stuff, and the “rugged individualism” used to justify it all, are just apart of the mindset.

All of this, in total irony given the right’s claim of how “exceptional” this society is. (Or, when they acknowledge what they think is wrong with it, it’s always other groups’ fault; whether the blacks, the Jews, or just the compromising “cucks” of either left or right. This, in the same breath of accusing blacks of “never accepting responsibility for anything”).

So this had me thinking more and more about this premise, and I figured I should finally sit down and read it, to see what it really says. Whether evolutionary or not, there must be something to it.


The 1990 foreword mentions an unpublished manuscript by Sigmund Freud (published as “A Phylogenetic Fantasy”) that suggested that Western man’s psychosexual aggressions were produced by glacial evolution during the last European Ice Age, as Bradley had first argued seven years earlier.
The introduction, by John Henrik Clarke of Hunter College summarizes the history of race. “There was no Europe in ancient times. The geographical area that would later be called Europe was not a functioning entity in world affairs when early civilizations were being developed in the Nile Valley and other river valleys in Africa and later in Western Asia (now mistakenly called the Middle East) and in mainland Asia in countries like India, China and later, Japan”. The first real show of European literacy began around 1250BC, with Homer’s Odyssey and the Iliad. They then “soon made a glaring discovery – Europe could not furnish them with enough food to properly feed them or enough material to properly clothe them. They began to look with covetous eyes at the more developed parts of the world”. What followed were the invasions of parts of Africa and Asia by the Greeks, Assyrians and Iranians (Persians).

The racism that plagues us today would have its origins in the 15th and 16th centuries, when Europe was stricken by poverty and established the slave trade to begin its economic recovery. The “official rationale of the Atlantic slave trade” started with a papal-sanctioned authorization of Spain and Portugal to reduce to servitude “infidels”, who had held Europe at bay since the age of the Crusades. While Europeans did enslave other Europeans for a much longer time than they enslaved Africans, this did not give birth to racism, but did lay the basis for feudalism.
They also at the time began colonization of the world, and what they call “colonization” of the Bible and the image of God. This created a contradiction, where they portrayed God as loving mankind and “no respecter” of men, but also who favored them over other people. Meanwhile, “The Europeans who were successful in Europe generally stayed in Europe”, so the New World became established by “a large number of people who were failures at home”. So, “Many of these Europeans felt called upon to make non-Europeans feel inferior so they they could convince themselves that they were a superior people”.
In the 20th century, with the rise of the “Yellow Peril” of Japan, this was when pseudoscientific racism began, and the propagation of the Teutonic origin theory.

Chapter 1 is on the “Greek gift” of Western technology and discusses medicine, nuclear war and the affect on the climate (greenhouse gas, etc), done in the name of “progress”, the “grain of truth” which “we” brought to “them“.
Chapter 2 is the “Greek gifts” of Western psychology and philosophy.
“Paradoxes” become “conflicts” (struggle between the spiritual and material, “free world” vs communism etc). “This weakness is alienation“, either from one truth of the paradox, or the other. We have to separate things.”
(Within Western religion, “paradox” is only used as a last resort to cover up incoherencies in doctrine, to silence questions when they have no further explanations. Examples are many arguments for the Trinity, God’s “love” versus “hatred”, free will vs election, and salvation or “sanctification” by “grace” and imparted “power” versus our own efforts. So in practice, they have become “conflicts” that have done what else, but cause “alienation” and division in the Church, into hundreds of denominations, many loudly denouncing others for “rejecting truth”, that to them is embodied in these “paradoxes” that they see as only becoming “conflicts” because of their opponents’ obstinance).

He then introduces the concept of “The Cronos Complex“; the title of his earlier book. That is that we differ from other species by our conception of time as a “territory”. Animals of course have “territories” that are spatial. I define space as a set of coordinates that are randomly accessible. You can go back and forth from one point to another. Time is sequential; about causation, and where we can’t go back to already passed points. This, animals can’t comprehend. So if you think of it, they really do not think in terms of time. They, with their “instincts” are totally in the “here and now”. Something happens, and they instinctively react. They do have memory, including things learned through stimulus-response. But they do not have the ability to preserve the past or plan for the future. Man has institutions like burial and religion, which is “past-present communication”, where writing is a “present-future communication”.
So just like with spatial territory, “we brought with us into the new dimension means of asserting and defending our territory” (p.16). This right away reminds me of conservative Christians’ polemics on the downfall of America, or even the West or white race in general. Clearly, they are defending “territory” (from the past) they see as being taken from them (in the present and future). So this territorialism actually ends up holding back further “progress”, where we feel threatened by the future. (p17f). So, “Man is a biological creature attempting to inhabit an environment that is non-biological. This is the paradox of human existence.” (p.18-9).

But he still got the sense that the Cronos complex didn’t tell the whole story; there was a second level of understanding, which was racial. This leads to chapter 3, “Child of Fire and Ice”. He starts off going into different mythologies, such as the Nazis’ “fourth cycle” the legend of Niord, the first hunter, who defeated the Worm Oroubourous by the use of fire, and deep in the earth, he became encased in ice, and Neitzsche’s Thus Spake Zarathustra, about the Persian prophet trying to keep the Iranian religion pure in the Caucasus and other middle eastern mountains. So most European peoples, preserved some memory of coming from the east and originating in the Caucasus-Pamir chain of mountains.

Basically, it was during the “ice age”, called Würm I, where we had the cave fires amidst all the ice. Hence, “fire and ice”.
So (p.26), it is right away pointed out that out of this geological backdrop, “Not intelligence, nor morality, not ‘spirit’, but aggression, is responsible for the white man’s superiority. Aggression is responsible for the expansion of Caucasoids, both geographically and culturally, at the expense of other races.” As far as psychosexual matters, “We have a low frustration level because glacial adaptation robbed us of sufficiently effective sexual displacement activities. Our philosophical and religious conflicts are the result of a glacial distortion of primate behavior-patterns”.
This would explain the sexual repression in historic Christianity, where sexual mores were so meticulous and obsessively focused on and the “morality of nations, and “holiness” of individuals were primarily judged based on, while other evils were OK if not championed. The one the most notable to me, being racism.

He then points out there is nothing innate or external about “superiority”, for in an earlier epoch, the ape-tending pongids were “superior” to hominids in adapting to the forests covering much of the earth. But it was the change of the earth’s climate, from Miocene to Pliocene, where the earth entered a drought millions of years long, “hominid liabilities in the Miocene became assets during the Pliocene”. The failure to adapt to the forests left adaptational options open for the new environmental conditions. Neither the pongids nor the hominids had the least responsibility for this. It was basically “fate”, or the matter of timing, even over talent and temperament. This is something today’s “rugged individualists” refuse to comprehend.

Not intelligence, morality, nor ‘spirit’, but aggression, is responsible for the white man’s “superiority”, meaning their expansion at the expense of other races. There is nothing innate or external about this

Part Two is where we get into the Neanderthal-Caucasoids.
Chapter 4 “The Concept of Race” starts off discussing the viewpoints of two writers, Lother Tirala, a Nazi proponent of “Race”, and Ashley Montagu, an liberal proponent of “non-race”. Linnaeus (1785) was an early includer of man in the animal world, recognizing only one species, divided along the continental masses, into “europaeus”, “asiaticus”, “americanus” and “afer”. Buffon (1749) introduced the term “race” to mean “variety”.
Montagu had shown that modern racism stems from two separate fonts: a justification of slave economics, and inherent ans erroneous assumptions in systems of classification in evolutionary constructs. So, “It is ironic that both religion and Darwinism were used to justify racism, since each system vehemently opposed the other” (p.34). Both have used it against each other, down to the present. (I remember being so irritated to see racism mentioned in creationist Henry Morris’ Revelation Record; the first time I had ever seen it addressed in a fundamentalist apologetic work; but only to be blamed on evolution —along with every other evil in the world! What about all the Genesis-believing Christians who [erroneously] said that God cursed “Ham”, the supposed father of the black race?)

At this point is introduced another name used frequently, C.S. Coon, who divided the blacks between the “Congoids” or contemporary black “negroes”, and the “Capoids”, who were the Bushmen and Hottentots, who differed from the [Congoid] Bantu they were enslaved by. This became one instance of race-based slavery the medieval world would know about. So, “what the blacks imposed on the Capoids was soon to be imposed upon the blacks by white Europeans”. (Coon’s full racial classification consists of “Caucasoid”, “Mongoloid”, “Australoid”, “Congoid” and “Capoid”. I believe the official system now narrows it down to Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid).

Yet, the natives of Africa and the Americas would actually be described by explorers (such as Vasco da Gama and Columbus) as superior in some ways (especially morally) to Europe’s peasants! Yet only a century later was when they would suddenly be characterized as “filthy, lazy pagans, of bestial morals, no better than dogs, and only fit for slavery” (which is what we are more familiar with in our history today). This was because medieval Europe considered slavery a circumstance rather than a mark of moral inferiority, and so, enslavement would be justified purely by the technological ability to do so. But it was the Church that aimed to provide a rationale for the circumstances, which was, regardless of how moral and intelligent they were, they were not yet Christians, and so slavery offered an opportunity for their conversion and the saving of their souls! (We see here how the Gospel was changed into purely a political tool, and no longer had anything to do with scripture. And the Christian world would later wonder why so many people reject it as “irrelevant”. What’s not covered, and you don’t really hear about anymore, is the earlier period of slavery, where they tried to forbid the converting of slaves. This probably connected with them not being seen as human. Eventually, of course, conversion became a handy tool to dominate over them).
So we see the origins of the debate that rages on today, as to whether the poor (and the minority “community” in general) are suffering from a series of bad circumstances, or their own moral inferiority.

There was also a division in both Europe and America, between North and South, where in both cases, the North was the first to oppose slavery. The north, because of the climate, became more industrial (through steam power), where the south remained more agricultural, and the large numbers of Africans and Amerinds were easy to exploit (p.37).
Where “Generations of slavery and lack of social and educational opportunities for black and Amerind fulfillment had inevitably resulted in poor development of these people and their offspring in comparison with the whites”, nature began to be appealed to as creating this inferiority, and by extension, “the order that God established”, and on the other front, notions of “less evolved” races, perhaps held by Darwin. He surmises the “sobering thought” that if Origin of Species had been published a decade earlier, the US might still be afflicted by slavery today! (p.40).

Basically, from here, much of the book gets into the origins of all men, rather than just the Caucasoids, especially when comparing Coon’s and the other anthropologists’ theories. He says he agrees with Coon’s theories of the races having different pre-human (Homo-erectus) ancestors, the Australoid-Pithecanthropus and Mongoloid-Sinoanthropus lines who crossed the ‘sapiens threshold’ separately (p47ff); but questions his objectivity in certain areas of the origins of races, where they lend to racist doctrines; like the Caucasoid and Mongoloid passing the sapiens threshold the earliest and thus being the most highly evolved, some Australoids straddling the threshold, and the Congoids being the newest and “mysterious”. Africa was the cradle of civilization, but only in the sense of being a “kindergarten”; “Europe and Asia were our principal schools”.
So ironically, I’ve seen where the alt-right, also accepting Neanderthal origins, uses it as more evidence of their supremacy, rather than any maladaptation. This would probably represent the strain of Coon’s theory.

P52-3 is a discussion and illustration of how all the major continents are cone shaped, narrowing toward the south, and so southern groups of people, such as the Bushmen (Capoids) and Australoids, were trapped, and easily conquered, or having to flee the continent (as in the case of the Australoids).

Chapter 5 is now on the Neanderthal-Caucasoids, which starts off on the “Heidelberg jaw” and other fossils. Coon tries to argue for a 300,000 or 400,000 year antiquity of sapience in Europe, against the disagreement of other experts.

The “Neanderthals” were named after Joachim Neander, originally “Neumann”; both meaning “new man”, which then was used by Dr. H. Schaaffhausen for a skull found in Neander’s Valley two centuries later.
The last glacial period; Würm, began 100,000 years ago, deepened into intense cold which then moderated 40,000 years ago in what’s called the Göttweig Interstadial, and then became savagely cold again until 8-10,000 BC with the last retreat of the glaciers. The Neanderthals died out with the warmer weather of the Göttweig Interstadial, when more modern men migrated to Europe. So the last Würmian cold snap was endured by modern men who were the ancestors of modern Europeans today.
I would have thought these peoples’ maladaptation to that climate would be the premise, but it seems this book focuses more on the Neanderthals. Mentioned (p.70) is that some scientists are divided in their opinion of the Neanderthals, and that they may have moved to Eurasia from elsewhere as the advancing Würmian glaciers drove more modern men out (so they were from the European-Caucasoid stock mixing with the Sinanthropus-Mongoloid), but there is some evidence some Neanderthal traits developed in Europe itself.
We next get into descriptions of the Neanderthals, beginning from the skull of LaChapelle aux Saints. They had the low broad skulls, with foreheads sloping back from large brow ridges and the prognathous jaw. You know, the typical “caveman” image. Eventually, Cro-Magnon was discovered and upheld, while Neanderthal came to be despised. Neanderthal did have some culture (awareness of the “past-present-future” continuum) though, with evidences of burial and religious sophistication.

Chapter 6 returns to the theme of “Fire and Ice: Psychobiology”, which basically continues the previous chapter with physical and cultural descriptions (Neanderthal faces were twice the size of modern ones and their heads an inch bigger in every direction but up, and also their short, stocky bodies likely “absurdly” round). Here, he discusses the Venus figurines and makes the odd suggestion of their wide hips or “hippiness” (larger than the norm for other races), being “typical” of European women (p.93, 107), and thus a holdover from the Neanderthals. That would make sense for them, but among today’s people, the Caucasians are usually slimmer, and blacks and other warm-climate women have the stereotypical “child-bearing hips”. So I’m not sure what this claim is about.
We also get a drawing of their huge feet and the insinuation that surviving remnants may have been the “abominable snowmen” of central Asia north of the Caucasus chain! (p.96, But for some reason, not the “Yeti” of the Himalayas).

In quotes from Montagu and Ivan T. Sanderson (respectively, below), debunked is the myth that Caucasoids are the most refined race, and Negroids are the most primitive; but rather closer to the opposite: “If racists would take the trouble to visit their local zoo and for a moment drop their air of superiority and take a dispassionate look at one of the apes, they would find the hair of these creatures lank, and that their lips are thin, and that their bodies are profusely covered with hair. In these characters the white man stands nearer the apes…”. I remember the Ansaars; the one time Brooklyn-based pseudo-Islamic sect that used to sell all the oils in the subway, had in one of their books a crude illustration making this point. People apparently associate Africans with apes because of the brown color, but for African people it’s their actual skin color. For apes, the color is mostly the fur, and under the fur, as the Ansaar booklet pointed out, is pinkish skin!
“The Negro so-called ‘race’ is apparently the newest and is the least pongid-like of all” (Ironically, Coon had tried to use the Negroes being newer as proof they were more primitive!) Sanderson then points to the same points regarding the lips and hair, as Montagu, and adds that the Mongoloids are very different from both. These primitive characteristics are inherited from the Neanderthal.
Next, he goes back into the cronos complex and territorialism, including through religion, and comparisons of the Congoid and Capoid and sexual dimorphism.

Part Three takes simply the title of the book. We think, finally, he’s going to get more to the central point. Chapter 7 is on “Love and Expression”. “Love is the middle ground between aggression and the ability to reproduce. A pair-bond, ‘love’, is displaced aggression. It is aggression ‘shoved aside’, literally, so that the partners can reproduce without threat.” (p130) “Lovers’ quarrels” and “playful fighting” are examples of this displaced aggression. While all peoples have similar courtship antics, only the West is said here to have a fully developed concept of “love”, as seen in the church-approved ‘courtly love’. A distinction is made between “eros” and “agape” (representing all other forms of love. It ignores the further distinctions, as found in scripture, of “philos“; and also “storge“, which is familial). “Just as the ‘love’ we call eros allows us to reproduce in the face of threat and aggression, so the ‘love’ we call agape allows us to live in the material world while yearning for the relationships awaiting us in eternity. Agape is that place where the needs of material survival are met while the realization of a past-present-future continuity is preserved.” He eventually gets into subjects such as female orgasm in western society and religious groups such as the Catharism/Albigensianism that produced the Troubadours of Provençal (langue-d’oc) fame and were destroyed by the prevailing Catholicism.
(Ironically, the Cathars/Albigenses are appealed to by some Baptists and various sects, in what’s called the “Trail of Blood” theory, where they try to trace their denominational lineage back to the original apostolic church via this persecuted group and others, seen as representing “the true Church through the ages”, in contrast to the powerful Catholics. Most of these modern sects have a heavy pietistic strain, and would probably reject the “romanticism” of the Troubadours as “sensual”, so they really do not know what they are talking about in identifying with this associated religious group, but then some try to say our knowledge of all of them is distorted by the persecutors.)

He along the way points out that the ancient Egyptian civilization was not a Western, Caucasoid achievement, but rather a multi-racial achievement. By 1500BC,
they began to record the invasions of the “sea peoples”. (p141) Rather than them swamping the Egyptian cultural influence (their numbers weren’t yet sufficient enough), they themselves were “Egyptianized”. (Mentioned is George Gurdjieff, a mystic who also created the “Enneagram of personality” concept discussed increasingly it seems, in typology circles. He was influenced by central Asian literacy and regarded Western fiction as “irrelevant”). Our “novels” focus on themes such as “love conquers all”, “love lost”, “love searched for”, or conflicts between eros and agape.

Chapter 8 is “Psychobiology in History and Society”. This discusses man’s control over nature, and defining “progress” in terms of increasing materialism. It then quickly goes back into the history of the different groups, and holds up ancient Egypt and China before the coming of maritime Europeans. Both incorporated progress, but neither were threatened by it, and should be emulated by Caucasoid civilization. Also is a discussion on how these civilizations differed in war. Being a soldier was not something romanticized as a glorious occupation in Egypt or China, and ships were designed differently, with Europeans having multiple levels in order to have more manpower, while Chinese and Egyptians simply made the one deck longer if needed, until materials limitations halted the size. This gets into the Western “frustration with nature”, leading to the urge to control it, through the desire to increase power and output.
Spending so much time on ship design, “we will not have to spend so much time on other progressive achievements which have more relevance to our crises”, so briefly mentioned are affects on health such as acupuncture, color and music (which Gurdjieff claimed the Egyptians used to stimulate plant growth). The orientation of pyramids affected the decomposition of organic substances! Where Westerners turned away from the “excess of sensation of technology and materialism”, then the cure must be the “asceticism” of some eastern philosophies. But the civilizations of China, Egypt and pre-Caucasoid India were not stable (and perhaps more fulfilling) because of asceticism, they were balanced, being highly erotic as well. (All three societies being “obsessed with fashion and cosmetics and jewelry), and had erotic art, yet both men and women were sex objects, rather than just women). So this then goes into western sexual maladaptation (and its resultant aggression) compared to those societies. So “our sexual-sensual behavior is not typical of civilized society but more resembles the sexual-sensual behavior of ‘primitive’ cultures retarded by adverse environmental conditions” (p184). This then uses as examples the dresses that overemphasize (distort) the hips or buttocks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and the demand for differentiation in sex, like parents’ complaints not long before the book, of boys wearing long hair.

Chapter 9 is “Ouroubouros Unfettered”

This mainly discusses the possible future outcomes of “the Iceman inheritance” on the world:

1) Western man will destroy all of visible life off of the planet

2) Western man will destroy its own culture and industrialism and the rest of mankind will establish something similar to the ancient Egyptians and Chinese, with perhaps some vestiges of Western technology

3) Extra-terrestial intervention which might impose some new pattern upon us

4) Western Man, through self-examination, can overcome his problem and modify his behavior

5) Western man and the rest of the world can continue to “progress” along the lines already established by contemporary culture and technology

The first and last are right away eliminated as “vanities of power”, as human life is too resilient and adaptable to be destroyed by Western folly, but yet, the environment is too limited and delicate for things to go on as they are. (I’m surprised he didn’t mention the danger of us destroying all human life and possibly all life together, with our nuclear technology).

That leaves the other three. The one he believes is most likely, based on the pattern of history, is Western Civilization collapse on itself. (Looks that way to me as well).
He still then addresses the other two scenarios. So then we get several pages on the possibility of extra-terrestrial life (including UFO sightings, scientific evidence, with Carl Sagan and others mentioned). I myself too have wished, or thought this might be our only hope. Technically, God would fall into this category, hence my believing in a “Second Coming” of Christ when I saw that this was the key message of the Bible. However, since it seems that was something already fulfilled by the events shortly after the scripture canon was closed, it’s back to square one on that front. So likewise, even after all of this, intervention still appears unlikely and that “we will be left alone to solve our own problems”.

So he ends on the final possibility, of consciously changing our behavior. Hope-offering examples are provided of Neanderthal-Caucasians being able to live in relatively gentle and non-expansive communities (with the Celtic-Cathars/Albigenses as the main one), in addition to the other cultures. Drawing upon Cyrano de Bergerac, our main adversary is our vanity. “Instead of denying the existence of biological determinates in our behavior, we must somehow find the courage to look them straight in the mirror. If we can only find the courage that Cyrano lacked, we may yet live. And if we do not find love, we may at least discover compassion for ourselves ad others”.

It is the (often unnecessary) aggression based upon the notion of cultural-religious-moral racial rightness that makes Western behavior unique, over the “comparative aggression” of others. No other people has shared this justification for aggression and expansion

The appendix is “Objections, Counter-arguments and Retorts”. The main one being the complaint we’ve heard a lot in today’s racially charged rhetorical environment, of non-White societies being made into paradise, when they were really full of “Comparative aggression”. When writing Makers-Takers, I ran across a South African White Nationalist site where in the same breath as blacks being portrayed as subhuman monsters, but rebuffing criticism of the white race and western civilization, a commenter asks, incredulously, that according to the “liberals”, “How could one civilization [i.e. whites] be so bad?” (Shouldn’t the question be, how could they think blacks could be so bad, or whites could be so good? If it’s possible for one group to be so bad, then it’s possible for the other one as well).
Now, while just finishing this, someone posts some new video of some cowboy looking person challenging an Indian telling him to get off his land with the “fact” that that Indian’s tribe had moved in and killed off a previous tribe. The point, if it was OK when you did it, then it’s OK for us to do the same to your land. Commenters give their usual tripe about “the losers whining after centuries” and “that’s life, get over it”. Of course, this ignores that those same people, the descendants of the conquerors, are now whining, or no, screaming more than anyone else, that they are being “conquered”, or even destroyed (by the very people they are giving all of this tough talk to; whether the minorities, illegal immigrants, the godless liberals giving everything away to them, etc.) Why is that any different?

Recently, calling this out on a similar FB post, I’m given the whole rationale. Life doesn’t give past losers the right to complain, but it does give people currently under “attack” the right to “defend themselves”. So this means, they can tell others to “stop whining” and to be “thankful” for all the goodness of this society, but they can whine about being destroyed (when others simply oppose them for their aggression), or this nation “no longer” being “great, and thus themselves not be thankful for anything. In other words, they have “rights” to demand better things in life, but not others. It basically corresponds to this division they’ve made between “rights” and “entitlements”, with those criticizing others for “entitlements” being the ones who truly have the “rights”, —based simply on who’s in power now. It’s “Might makes right”, pure and simple. (Some of them, perhaps in the back of their mind realize that the same “nature” or God that allowed them to rise to power can one day allow someone to usurp it from them, but part of their “self-defense” is the blaming of what they fear will happen in the future on those seen as making them weak and giving the birthright away to others; so they can hypothetically lose some day, but it will be the fault of “the forces of evil”, like liberals and moderates, and so they can do all they can to try to prevent this now by vigorously fighting these enemy “others”).

That’s what explains this huge attribution shift; why both can do the same things (Romans 2), but only one is right. Who determined this (i.e. who has the “right” to complain, or what is a “right” or an “entitlement”), we don’t know. (But since there are so many Christians in this movement, then the idea that “The Lord gives and the Lord takes away” still condemns their attitude, since it means they might be fighting God’s will. Also, from this, and even a nontheistic perspective; the neurotic focus on survival of the “race” or “culture”, especially as many of these people, Christian or not, claim to be “post-racial”). It’s “extended ego”, not any concern for the laws of either God or nature, and so the whole premise is mired in pure deceit.

So Bradley denies, saying that examples of non-Western aggression had been offered. “I have not intended to suggest that Neanderthal-Caucasoids have always proved more aggressive than anyone else… but merely that this major group of Mankind has a tendency toward higher aggression and that this has, in the aggregate, affected the pattern of history in obvious ways.
On the other hand, some examples given for exceptional non-Caucasoid aggression do seem to evaporate under closer scrutiny, especially with the quality of the aggression manifested.”

For the Mexican-Indians, he connects their aggression, especially connected to their religion, to Old World ideas and behavior, and hence, “yet another iceman inheritance imposed upon non-Western peoples”. (The Spaniards, for instance, found many religious parallels between Europe and Mexico. The suggestion, apparently, is that some of this had been brought over the Bering Strait by their ancestors). Until more data is analyzed, “the religious wars of Middle America’s populations cannot be used as an argument against this thesis.”
For the Mongol expansions, it’s about the quality of the aggression, meaning it was “normal” aggression, motivated by overpopulation (environmental necessity) rather than psychological motivation. The West has expanded even when unnecessary…in order to impose Western culture and religion on others. Or from the motivation of sheer greed, or from all these motivations combined in a mutually supportive justification structure. It is this expansion and aggression based upon the notion of cultural-religious-moral racial rightness and intolerance that makes Western behavior unique. I submit that no other people has shared this justification for aggression and expansion…certainly not the Mongols.”
He also presents argument regarding Japan, the Eskimos, and the Capoid and Australoid extinction at the hand of non-Caucasoid people.

This of course ties into the whole “Scriptural” component of the justification. Scripture really condemns the means of “expansion” and also condemns self-justification; we are supposed to admit our own sin and then show the same mercy we believe we have received, toward others. But scripture instead was taken out of context, where conquests or judgments seen on the Old Testament were taken as commands for “Christian” nations thousands of years later who did not receive the actual commands recorded there. This is part of what Western “Christian” civilization has been held up to, and their validity dismissed for (Romans 2:24). But all conservative defenders can do is point to others; “what about them“? (Even though they know this would never fly, before God; but they are so sure they are right with God, and again, they criticize others as “never accepting responsibility”!) But those “others” are the ones you consider to be “godless heathens”, and yourselves the faithful Christians. You’re supposed to set the example of godliness, as the “light to the nations”, not appeal to them as justification of your own ungodliness in the same breath as condemning their ungodliness! This is why it seems popular culture is so against traditional Western and Christian “values”. (See also, Eph.4:27, John 9:41, Luke 12:48).


So the book does make and support its point, but it goes off into so much other details, it seems more like a general study of anthropology. So it doesn’t seem really hard-hitting enough. (I of course am looking for something that will be a good counter to both mainstream Right “dog whistling”, and alt-Right “supremacy”). It’s too easy to get lost into all the details about human evolution in general. What I had hoped to see was more specific connections with modern behavior and beliefs.

What I find as a cause for concern is the direction the author has seemed to go in the nearly 40 years since publishing the book, and as I saw in researching him for this project, it is possibly anti-semitism. Jews were barely mentioned in the old printing, but this newer publication promotional: http://www.michaelbradley.info/books/iceman/iceman_promo.html is subtitled “A frightening publication history of Jewish media suppression”. It’s compared to the Nation of Islam’s The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews.
So on the page, he covers his history promoting the original publication.

Then, in early 1981, someone figured out the implications for Jews in the book’s presentation of evidence…

I had never considered this myself because it had been a long time since I had taken my own Jewish origins into any account. I had never even thought about any “Jewish implications” of the book. Neither did the Jewish publisher of the original Canadian edition, Larry Goldstein. And, obviously, Dr. Judith Posner had not thought about any “Jewish implications” either when she wrote an Introduction for The Iceman Inheritance – unless, of course, courageous Judy Posner simply had more affinity with all of humanity than with her own ethnic group. Jews were blandly mentioned on half a page in the 226-page book.

After 1981, some bookstores that had formerly carried the book were threatened with boycott and fire-bombing by Jewish pressure groups.


This eventually leads into something called the Khazar theory. I had recently been hearing this, probably from some FB “friends” with some radical “libertarian” or paleo-con leanings (who post things that may ultimately tie into the alt-right). It basically says the common “white” Jews (particularly the Ashkenazis) were actually descended from a Caucasian tribe from the Russian steppe. They “converted en-masse to Judaism about AD 740 in order to avoid religious, cultural and political control by either Moslems in Persia or by Christians in Byzantium. These ‘Jewish’ Khazars, along with Alans, Bulgars, Magyars and other minor steppe tribes, were subsequently dispersed all over Central and Eastern Europe about 500 years later by the Mongol invasion of AD 1218.”
He even points to the common physical traits, such as the faces of people like Barbara Streisand and Julia Roberts. (BTW, Donald Fagen would be a textbook example of that as well).

On one hand, this view was enticing, because I’ve always held the position that the original Israelites of the Bible were people of color, like the modern Palestinians and others, and even some current day Israelis. But it seems when you look at most people called “Jews” today, they are pure “white”, many even with blonde hair and blue eyes. Even though “white supremacists” reject them as part of their race, when growing up, they were always called “white” and identified themselves as such. The Census even considers them “Caucasian”.
So it is so easy to assume, as apparently the entire Church did, that these were what the people of the Bible looked like. Sure enough, nearly every Sunday-school and Bible illustration of Moses, Joseph, Judah, David, all the prophets, and Jesus and the apostles, are all white. It’s then further assumed the Israelites were the original racial stock, so the whiteness is then further projected back to Abraham, Shem (even though most will acknowledge the true Caucasian race as stemming from Japheth along with the Mongoloids), Noah, and the first humans, Adam and Eve.

This went right along with the racism of the Western Church. Whites, whether Israelite or not, were the “chosen” race. Blacks were “cursed” Ham.
(Hislop’s Two Babylons clearly identified Nimrod as “black”. Herbert Armstrong, who I entered the faith through, drawing upon Hislop in Mystery of the Ages, then proclaims all the “chosen” figures, from Adam to Noah and his sons, to “God’s chosen nation Israel”, to Jesus, as “white”, of course taking care to add “not that the white race is in any way superior” ⦅these people, including today’s “dog whistlers”, refuse to understand how innuendo works⦆, and admitting “the Bible does not reveal in the Bible the precise origin of the different races”, but with what Wikipedia would call “weasel words”: “it is evident”, “happened to be”, prefaced with “undoubtedly”, with no evidence! The point, the main sin in the pre-flood era and the Tower of Babel afterward was intermixing of races, which God had “separated”; and a desire “still inherent in human nature today”, with talk of the “unblemished, perfect lineage”, and an analogy to animal “thoroughbred or pedigreed stock”! (p148. The eternal “Wonderful World of Tommorrow” he concludes the book on, will continue these “boundaries” God has set!)

Also, some white supremacists held black skin as the “Mark of Cain”. Though all of Cain’s descendants were supposed to have perished in the Flood. They’ll probably say Ham’s wife had the genes; just as Armstrong says Eve had the “yellow” and “black” genes, passed through the son’s wives, though without ever connecting this to Cain.
Armstrong also held to “Anglo-Israelism”, which says that the US and Britain are two of the lost ten tribes of Israel, with other northern European nations being the other tribes. One of the conclusions from this is that all of the conquest and slavery that benefited these nations were fulfillment of the “promise” made to Abraham! He also took the prophecy of Amos 9:9, about the exiled nation “For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth” as proving the race is totally “pure”. They never mixed with any other group; not one single person apparently, so all the “Israelites” you see today: Jews, Anglos, Nordics, etc., are the same exact “race” we read about in the Bible!

Anglo-Israelism is one of the main “heresies” evangelical apologetics condemns Armstrongism for, but you really wonder why they even bother on that point, when it is compatible with, and in actuality, the logical extension of, much of traditional American evangelical preaching on politics and morality! Think, “God is taking away his blessings on our nation and cursing us because of all the sin today!”, as if we are breaking a specific national-divine covenant like the one made with Biblical Israel. Only Armstrongism is fully consistent in that.
Of course, to white supremacists, “Judah” rejected her Messiah, so then it’s their racial “cousins”, the other “chosen” people, the white “Christian” nations, whether linked lineally to Israel or not, who now inherit the “birthright” as the new “chosen” nations!)

So this “Khazar” theory would totally debunk that whole premise, and explain why Jews appear to be Caucasian (aside from trying to argue that it’s purely from mixing). So Bradley is tying it in with his Neanderthal “Iceman” premise, and now claiming they are trying to suppress the theory because of it. You can see more of this here.
So looking up the Khazar theory, I see it is lumped in with “antisemitism”, and also (as it would figure) held by alt-right groups. It’s claimed to have been refuted, as no real genetic evidence connects Jews to this eastern group. So I’m not messing with that theory. (At least not until there is some more solid verification of it, and agreement that it is not simply antisemitic propaganda). There may have been some mixing with that group, but I just don’t trust anything alt-righters say. (Of course, they claim everyone is suppressing their “truths”, and it ultimately becomes more pre-supposed, biased conjecture than anything else).

Interestingly enough, those other “Russian steppe” groups mentioned above are the ones associated with the “Gypsies”, who were already, historically despised by Westerns. So it figures antisemites would benefit by tagging the Jews in with those peoples.
However, the initial basis of antisemitism, that they were the “murderers of Christ”, would then fall flat, as the gentile Khazars, being hundreds of miles away, had nothing to do with the Crucifixion. The modern advocates of this theory don’t seem to be thinking of that.

Of course, alt-righters are also against blacks, while this guy’s original premise seemed to be to admit the error of racism, explaining it anthropologically. So I’m really not sure where he’s coming from. (Him being part Jewish doesn’t necessarily help. Hitler himself apparently was as well. There are self-hating Jews, just as there are self-hating blacks). As mentioned before, some alt-righters even hold the Neanderthal origin theory as proving superiority.

Still, I think there is something to the basic premise, regarding “aggression” (whether it goes all the way back to Neanderthals, or the “modern people” who suffered similar conditions later). This is essentially what’s being held up in the Right as the very “character” others, especially the blacks, lack, and particularly in the whole “rugged individualism” premise of modern politics and economics (drawing upon their heavily romanticized “American frontier” roots).
Again, it feels like this society is becoming a virtual Ice Age, not literally, but politically and economically. They insist it is “exceptional”, but then they appeal to raw “nature” (including, again, the Christians; who largely voted for the unscrupulous Trump), and everything is being run like a frozen cave in the middle of Würm. Everyone just covers themselves and passes the buck to the less powerful, and no one cares. Again, dog-eat-dog; survival of the fittest, in the name of the “market” as justification for unbridled “nature”. Yet, we’re so much above the animals, and other people!

So with the alt-right on the warpath today, with the utter gall to be boldly wielding their views as infallible “truth” as if God shouted it down from Heaven, and never thinking in the least, that it might be “too good to be true” that they are so superior, or having no sense of any negative side to their achievements, this is something they should be checked with, especially since they hold to a central part of the premise, regarding the Neanderthals. Aggression is not really “superiority”. Perhaps in a survivalistic sense, but definitely not in a moral sense! For every “good”, there is a shadow of “bad”, so what is “exceptional” with technology and even religion has also been exceptionally “bad”, in some of what has been done with it. So this is something they should constantly be made aware of. And it’s certainly better than other theories, such as the ones of black “Muslim” and “Hebrew” groups that explain these things by “demonizing” the race, quite literally!

Keirsey’s last two books: Brains and Careers and Personology. Review of his final type model

Here I put together a review of both of these final books from David Keirsey. He had obviously decided to completely revamp his theory, and in the process, move further away from mainstream MBTI-based typology concepts.

Brains and Careers was released in 2008, and on the website, it was mentioned that there were now four “roles of interaction”: “Initiator”, “Contender” “Coworker”, “Responder”, which made some of us excited, as these corresponded to Berens’ Interaction styles (she herself seemed interested when I first reported this on a Keirsey temperament list). It was about $20 (and eventually went up to $30), and with money problems, seemed too much to try to buy then.
Nobody else we knew seemed to have gotten it.

Two years later (2010), he released another book called Personology. The term was actually coined in the first book, as a section on “the Nine Personologists” (Hippocrates, Plato, Aristotle, Paraclesus, Adickes, Spränger, Kretschmer, Fromm and Myers) and so now became the title of the followup book.
I got this one right away (and it was cheaper), and seeing how different the concepts were (even some of the new concepts, like two of the roles of interaction, were already changed), had to wonder how different it was from B&C. We began hearing it was just a “rewrite”, which I now see is somewhat true.

I was slow in buying books, and probably not too long before B&C came out had just gotten Berens’ books and wouldn’t get his older books until around this time, two years later. It was actually this new book that raised my interest in Portraits of Temperament, to see if he had actually introduced the interaction roles there, but that book is only where he introduced the factor that would divide the temperaments into eight groups, and then be picked up by Berens first, to create the four new groups, and now in these two books finally picked up by Keirsey, but with a bit of a twist, as we shall explore.

So the basic concepts were set in place in the first book, but now just modified a bit. Still, having not seen the book, and thinking he changed too much in this one, this raised interest in the previous book. I didn’t want to spend so much on it, and it took a while before I could catch one under $10 on Amazon (and even then, on the first several tries, something would always go wrong with the order or shipment and it would be cancelled, or I get the wrong book)

These would be his final books, as three years later (July 30, 2013) he passed away.

The radical changes from before

It seems he has completely dropped all type codes now. He briefly mentions the letters/functions in his description of Myers’ theory as part of the “history of temperament” in the appendix of the first book and the opening chapter of the second. But for the rest of the books, he goes purely by names. And at that, many of them have changed since previous books!

There is a heavy focus on what were known as “skills sets” (Diplomatic, Logistical, Strategic, Tactical), used more than the official temperament names.
Also, an alternative set of descriptive names used with these: Enablers, Safekeepers, Builders, Manipulators.

Keirsey also uses the four card suits to represent the temperaments:
♦ diamonds: Artisans
♥ hearts: Idealists
♠ spades: Guardians
♣ clubs: Rationals

There’s also a temperament/role matrix for each type, with the roles as the horizontal rows and the temperaments as the vertical columns. The type being profiled is in upper right position and is more likely to play the role of the type in the row or column in descending order. INTP “Accomodating Strategist” [again, names are used, not the type code] will more easily play the role of fellow Rational ENTP than the lower down Rationals the NTJ’s. It will be the same for fellow “Accomodators” ISFP, followed by INFP and ISFJ. The type in the far lower right corner will be the ESTJ, the Initiating Logistician.

He also renames several of the key factors.
Cooperative becomes “Compliant” and Pragmatic becomes “Adaptive“. (These are the “keys“)
The handy “role-informative/role-directive” factor introduced in Portraits of Temperament(and formed the basis of Berens’ Interaction Styles, which were the most helpful in my correlation of type with classic temperament) are now renamed “Enterprising” and “Inquiry” (“Role playing”), and again in the second book, “Reactive” and “Proactive“.

This results in four “Frames“, which are 2×2 matrices of:
Methods” Compliant/Adaptive + Immediate/Remote, yielding the four “Character” skills sets names
“Roles” Enterprise/Inquiry + Interlink/Intersect, yielding the four interaction roles
“Word Use”: Definitive/Normative, + the old “Concrete/Abstract” forming “Pictorial, Factorial, Orthodox and Metaphoric”
“Tool Use” Facility/Mechanism + Simple/Complex; yielding “Storing, Steering, Nurturing and Levering”.
(These last two sets are also alternate terms for the temperament groups; Guardian=”Orthodox” and “Storing”; Rational=”Factorial” and “Levering”, Artisan=”Pictorial” and “Steering”, and Idealist=”Metaphoric” and “Nurturing”).

He even crosses Proactive/Reactive, with Compliant/Adaptive (that is, an “interaction” factor with a temperament factor!) creating four groups comprising of (not using the letters, of course) STJ/NFJ, NTJ/STP, NFP/SFJ, and NTP/SFP.

With all these new names and combinations all over the place, it takes time to remember what’s what.

He for all purposes has completely dropped the four dichotomies of the type code (expressive/reserved; concrete/abstract, toughminded/friendly, and scheduling/probing).. “Concrete/Astract” seem to be mentioned only as part of the alternate “Word Use” frame. E/I is referred to once in each book (p.357 and 321, respectively), as “expressive” vs “attentive”, as part of the “Word usage synonyms of three dimensions of human interaction”.
Replacing it in the interaction role matrix is what corresponds to the “Process/Outcome” cross-factor Berens had introduced for the Interaction Styles, called “Interlinking vs Intersecting“, which ties together I/E—D/Inf “opposites”.

Interlinking: the role of one person is related to the role of another such as to be linked or fit together. Such as when one person directs, and the other does as directed.

Intersecting: When we line up opposite of opponents, and besides proponents, the roles intersect; each person intent upon their own agenda. Such as in any competition where we side with our team mates, and oppose the opposite team.

I find these to be accurate. The first would represent the way the Choleric (expressive/directive; “Initiator”) likes to lead, and the Supine (reserved/informative; “Responder” or “Accomodator”) likes to follow. (In APS, it’s further revealed that the negative side of this is that the Choleric comes to despise those he leads, while the Supine feels unacknowledged and used).

With the second, both sides are doing the same thing (as opposed to one leading and the other following) yet having different (opposing) agendas.
The expressive and responsive (“Coworker” or “Collaborator”) Sanguine will be very social, while the reserved and resistant Melancholy (“Contender”) will tend to want to be left alone. Both are basically “doing their own thing”, rather than following or leading.
They may clash, if the expressive (Sanguine) approaches the reserved (Melancholy), and the latter resists.

(So the three dimensions appear together in this one table of lists, but the rest of the time, only Interlinking/Intersecting and Enterprise/Inquire or Proactive/Reactive are used.
Also, while these are being used for the “affective” groups or “Inclusion area” only; I believe the dynamics also work for the conative temperaments or “Control area” so that the SP and SJ will “intersect” and the NT and NF will “interlink”. Strategy and Diplomacy will interlink as the strategist takes the lead in action, and the Diplomat likes to move others to action, and likewise Tactics and Logistics will intersect. These would simply map onto S-intersect/N-interlink. In Schutz’s original FIRO-B theory, this “interlinking” dynamic is called “Reciprocal compatibility”).

Here I compare the names of type factors and groups that have changed from before, and between the two books.

“Roles of Interaction” and factors:

Previous Brains and Careers Personology
N/A (EST/ENJ) Initiator
N/A (IST/INJ) Contender
N/A (ESF/ENP) Coworker Collaborator*
N/A (ISF/INP) Responder Accomodator*
Cooperative Compliant (with norms)
Pragmatic Adaptive (to Circumstances)
Role Directive Enterpriser (Assert) Proactive (Tell)
Role Informative Inquire(r) Reactive (Ask)
N/A (Berens “Outcome) Interlinking
N/A (Berens “Process” Intersecting
N/A (Berens “Structure”) “annoying”
NA (Berens “Motive”) “contagious”
Expressive/reserved (E/I) Expressive/attentive (deprecated)

*(These now match the corresponding Thomas-Kilmann [TKI] Conflict Modes)

“Intelligence Variants” (now called “Careers“)

Previous Brains and Careers Personology
Conservator (SFJ) Provider
Administrator (STJ) Monitor
Entertainer (SFP) Improvisor
Operator (STP) Expeditor
Advocate (NFP) Interceder Mediator
Mentor (NFJ)
Engineer (NTP) Structurer Constructor
Coordinator (NTJ) Stratifier Coordinator

Types (“career niches“):

Previous Brains and Careers Personology
Provider (ESFJ) Supplier
Protector (ISFJ)
Supervisor (ESTJ)
Inspector (ISTJ)
Performer (ESFP)
Composer (ISFP)
Promoter (ESTP)
Crafter (ISTP)
Champion (ENFP) Advocator Advocate*
Healer (INFP) Conciliator Reconciler
Teacher (ENFJ) Educator
Counselor (INFJ)
Inventor (ENTP) Engineer Modeler
Architect (INTP) Designer*
Fieldmarshal (ENTJ) Mobilizer*
Mastermind (INTJ) Planner Arranger

*(Similar to Berens)

Further comparison of two books:

The books are outlined a bit differently, with the first one having standard chapters on the basic concepts covering the first 90 pages
Then, “Temperament Revisited”, chronicling his earlier three books on the subject, and the evolution of the temperament names. Following this, are the four “books”, containing the lengthy profiles of each of the the temperaments. Then, the Appendix, containing the end note, bibliography, etc. The second book is still similar, but drops the “books” format, but nevertheless begins on “Personology” (the theorists through history, then goes into sections breaking down type into “complying”, “adapting”, “proactive” and “inquiry”.

Tables I see in the first book that were not in the second are “Framing and Keying” (“Overview”, p.10-14), framed around “Compliance” and “adaptation” division of the temperaments (the Plato-based old names are actually “Characters”, drawing from Kretschmer, while “Temperament” in the second row is represented by the descriptions “Enthusiastic, Serious, Tranquil and Excited”), and “Roles—Methods—Careers—Niches” on p.26, which consist of four tetramerous circles; “roles” are the four “interaction” groups; “Methods” are the four “skills sets” representing the temperaments; “Careers” is “Builders, “Enablers” “Savers” and “Handlers”, and “Niches” is “Laboratory”, “Institution”, “storehouse” and “Court”.
Tables and graphs similar in both books show which temperaments, roles, the eight “brain types” are suited to careers or niches.

The colorful “Playing Roles” table on p60 of the first book, showing the eight groups introduced in Portraits of Temperament as “Intelligence Variants” (Now known as the “careers”; corresponding to the last eight letters of type), divided into the two types making up each, and divided by lines representing “Compliant/adaptive” and “enterprise/inquiry”. This leads into the profiles of each type based on a “tree” of “Role Playing” that breaks down into “Enterprise” vs “Inquiry”, which themselves break down into the four roles: “Preemptive” (Initiator), “Competitive” (Contender), “Cooperative” (Coworker) and “Accomodative” (Responder), which then divide between “Compliant” and “Adaptive”, which the divide into the 16 types.
In Personology, the tree is “Role Enactment”, which breaks down into Compliant and adaptive first, then the four temperament skills sets, then the eight “Variants” or “Careers”, and then the 16 types. (This reminds me of the “rings” his son had produced on one of the online sites and was picked up by Wikipedia).

Conclusion:

As others have also felt, it seems to me like he is just rehashing the theories. (and then trying to further refine them, which is introverted Thinking —though he doesn’t believe in functions; and yet, as I myself have seen, can be carried too far and lose readers). Again, all the new names did make it a bit confusing, because I had to remember what type they are referring to (especially since he doesn’t use the code anymore).
His theory would have hit its peak (in my view) if he had just adopted the Interaction Style groups (“roles of interaction”), and including the new Interlinking/Intersecting. That was the improvement over the PUM’s, and the completion of the ideas he introduced in Portraits of Temperament (which is where he introduced the 8 intelligence variants, based on directive/informative). Instead, he seems to have pushed things too far with all the renaming and reconfiguring.

Someone wondered what will come of these last works; like if this will be forgotten, and it seems like it already has, as it was not even known about by most people to begin with. His basic four temperaments are pretty much established in online type discussions (Even though he rejected the functions, and on the other side, MBTI class jokingly warned us not to talk about temperaments, which are not accepted in official MBTI usage). So even though I had created the review threads on a few boards (that ultimately became this post), there still wasn’t a lot of interest from the getgo, and so the type community has already moved on like it never existed, and holding to the old concepts only.

What I have always said, is that since he really wanted his theory to be separate from MBTI (I originally thought it was all the same thing, since they used the same type codes), then perhaps this is what he should have come up with originally, from his first Please Understand Me book. (And then it would be a matter of us drawing the correlations to MBTI type). He has truly moved further away from the popular typology.

(Originally posted as two separate comments here https://erictb.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/various-typological-and-life-experience-thoughts/#comment-4107 where I had gotten Personology when it came out, but not the earlier Brains and Careers until just recently, and so compared them).

30 Years Later, the Battle Continues: The Psychology Behind the Bridge Wars

I had considered doing a followup to the Roxanne War (https://erictb.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/the-roxanne-war-complete-chronology-of-hip-hops-greatest-saga/#comment-4278), on “The Bridge War” which basically superseded it, with all the relevant videos, but didn’t bother as I never liked the outcome of that one (though I did contribute heavily to the Wikipedia article). Also, for one, rap at the end of the Roxanne war entered the transition where in those few years inbetween it had become much more vulgar and violent, which I was against. Plus, there are’t nearly as many entries in the Bridge war, so all the relevant videos can easily be found, but here is the list of them:

Basic Players:

1985:
(“12:41” aka Scott La Rock and crew including KRS, “Success Is The Word”, record dissed by Mr. Magic leading to retaliation)

1985-6:
MC Shan“The Bridge”

1986:
Boogie Down Productions“South Bronx”

MC Shan“Kill That Noise”

1987:
Boogie Down Productions“The Bridge Is Over”

Rockwell Noel & The Poet:

“Beat You Down”
(When I first heard this one, his voice being much higher back then, I actually thought it was Shan‘s answer to “The Bridge Is Over”, and that “poet” was just a description and not his name; and I was like YEAH! Now THAT’s more like it!”)

1988:
“Taking U Out”
(Even stronger followup, though I thought was way too hard on Ms. Melody, who did not seem to be involved in the war. It’s really baffling that KRS never responded to that part of it. All I can imagine is that she and KRS must have broken up at the time, and so he didn’t care. He was too busy extolling his own self anyway).

MC Butchy B“Beat Down KRS”, mocks the whole reggae theme of “The Bridge is Over”

Boogie Down Productions“Still No. 1 (Numero Uno mix)”. A remake of his popular “Still No. 1” that starts off adding who he’s not down with (Poet and the other “Juice Crew” members), in addition to who he is down with, and then does a whole new rap against Poet.

Related records: the radio DJ’s and one-shots (mostly ca.1988):

Roxanne Shanté“Have A Nice Day” (ends on a quick shot at the BDP crew; ’87-8)

MC Shan“Juice Crew Law” (some believe also contains shots at KRS)

Cool C“Juice Crew Diss” (mocks “Juice Crew Law”)

MC Mitchski“Brooklyn Blew Up The Bridge” (made fun of Shan’s on-stage appearances)

Craig G“Duck Alert” (About rival KISS-FM’s DJ Red Alert)

Butchy B“Go Magic” (Mentions “Juice Crew Diss”, and then attacks the “lipstick” of the KISS-FM logo).

Deuces Wild—[Chuck Chillout KISS ID] (Samples “South Bronx”, “…Chuck Chillout on the mix…“, and includes lines, “you turn the volume up, 107.what?…” [i.e. WBLS=107.5], and, apparently aimed at Magic: “You ain’t smackin’ no lipstick, you can just kiss this; you’re just an old man, finished in this business“, and ends with the ad libs “Let’s dis Magic”; “Madame Tragic!” and “Marley Moo Moo!”

Aftermath reference raps:

1990:
Boogie Down Productions“Black Man In Effect” (Discusses the concept of “juice” and reiterates “I’m not down with a juice-crew”)

1990-1:
Poet + Hot Day“Without Warning” (contains samples of “Numero Uno” and briefly answers one of them, but otherwise is general ‘ego’ rap)

Screwball (later Poet crew):
2000:
You Love To Hear The Stories” (a followup to the original “The Bridge”, featuring MC Shan. Shan now protests “Nobody said it started there. But some playa hater tried to end a party there. Niggas didn’t care they burned it, put it in the air“)
2001:
“Bio” (anonymous reference with the citing of Doug. E. Fresh’s “You Ain’t Nothin” from “The Bridge is Over”)

QB’s Finest (showcase of Queensbridge hip hop artists)—”Da Bridge 2001” (Another followup to the original. Shan quips: “The Bridge was never over, we left our mark. The jam is dedicated to you and your boys, I brought my Queensbridge thugs to kill that noise”.

2007:
KRS One With Marley Marl, Hip Hop Lives album:
Rising“: (KRS recounts the whole story from his perspective)
The Victory“: featuring [by then, “Blaq”] Poet; (quashes their part of the beef)


How I chose sides

It seemed 9 [almost 10] years ago (wow, that long already) that battle was officially resolved by KRS teaming up with archenemy Marley Marl on an album, which included his strongest opponent, Poet in a duet rap.
However, I was always disturbed by what I would now call the “archetypal” implications of the original aftermath, of the obviously “strong” bass-voiced rapper “taking out” the weaker looking higher pitched voice rapper, which was the official narrative. And the latter is now beginning to react to this as well.

How I got to this position in this war: As I chronicle in my essay on the gradual downfall of rap http://www.erictb.info/rap.html I did not see Run-DMC in a favorable light, because of the fierce in-your-face aggressiveness and braggadocio of the “ego” style they introduced with “Sucker MC’s”, which quickly took over rap, and began transforming it, basically into the negative “gangsta” style in just a few years, where it had started out more positive, as party, talent and then “message” oriented.
Run, with rap pioneer Kurtis Blow (who also went from a message style to pure ego, dubbing himself the “king of rap”), and the others surrounding Run’s brother Russell Simmons (aka “Rush”) then formed a “mainstream” inner circle of rap, all dominated by ego-bragging, and culminating with their 1985 film Krush Groove.
(And “Krush/Crush” seemed to be a name that figured prominently in a thematic way. Run-DMC’s “Sucker MC’s” series of tracks were subtitled “Krush Groove I”, “Krush Groove II”, etc. even before the movie came out. These were named after an “Orange Krush” singing group produced by Simmons and headed by “Larry Laa [Smith]” whom the Run rap series drew beats from, and were mentioned in the first one. The early influence of these rappers were the “Cold Crush Brothers”.
So these figures seemed to mark in part, what I’m calling the rap “mainstream”. It seems the center of it all was “Rush” [Simmons] himself, whom those names were likely based on).

Major Rap Division begins

A sort of “counter”-movement began with Roxanne Shanté, who of course started off dissing UTFO, but then would later take shots at Run and Kurtis Blow. Her DJ, Marley Marl would later introduce MC Shan and others, who would go after LL Cool J and even Run-DMC (which Shan now claims to have ghost-written).
As stated above, I first began to become sympathetic to Shanté when I thought Sparky D’s (and later, UTFO’s own final) response was “unfair”. (I really got into the whole “story”, treating it as an audio “soap opera”!)

I of course knew Marley was associated with Shanté, as she praises him in her raps, just as all other MC’s did for their DJ’s back then (and this was the MC’s original function!) I didn’t know he was associated with Mr. Magic (not initially, that is. There was a clue in Shanté mentioning Magic “saving the day” in “the Queen of Rox”, but I didn’t know what exactly she was talking about).
They both discovered her together, in fact. (I later find out this latter point from the internet, telling how long I was in the dark on that!)
Back then, I just knew Marley always seemed to be involved with a lot of these dissident rappers coming out, several associated with the small Pop Art record label Shanté debuted on, who were independent from the mainstream.

So I came to associate Magic with the “mainstream” rappers because of his DJ album he put out c.1985, which had Run, Kurtis Blow, LL, Fat Boys, etc. (Not sure if it was part of the Mr. Magic’s Rap Attack series, as what I’m seeing now looks different. The one I think I remember is the one where he wore the white magician suit, and Vol. 1 looks different, though has a similar lineup).
This makes it funny how Magic could promote these rappers, but then also raise up these two others, to dis them.

If it seems strange that I didn’t know that Magic and Marley were such a big team, it’s because I never listened to their station, WBLS. I, as it is, was already on the “other side” of the radio battle going on at the time, with rival “KISS-FM” (98.7; WRKS), which I listened to (switching over from the old WKTU three years earlier, because they played Stevie’s “Do I Do” to death! I liked them so much, when I was in VA, I found an apparent sister station, “Kiss 96”, WQKS out of Williamsburg, but could only get the distant station from the opposite side of the dorm from my room).
Also, Shan would never appear in the “Rap Attack” series, and Shanté would not appear until vol.3, with “Have A Nice Day”. (Her entry in the Bridge War, several years later. I don’t even think Marley was mentioned on them either). Inasmuch as Shan and Shanté mentioned Marley on the records more than Magic, it was easy to miss the connection between them.
This series, I can now see, was a showcase of whoever was popular (and thus playing a lot), and not who he was necessarily “down” with.

I also knew nothing about the dispute between Magic and UTFO which led to Shanté’s introduction in the first place (something about some show they were supposed to do or something). So I saw UTFO as on the “mainstream” side. For one, they were associated with Whodini, who seemed pretty mainstream. Also, again, that “The Real Roxanne” was actually produced by them (to counter Shanté), and she would mention that “Larry Laa” person (of “Sucker MC’s” fame) in a favorable light, as if they were all “down”. Then Sparky D came to defend them from Shanté, and she was associated with a “Spyder D” who was on Profile, which was Run-DMC’s long time label. (The Rap Attack albums were also on Profile, perhaps partly explaining the selections on them.
So record labels also figured in my assumptions of who was “down” with who. I much more recently find out that she had a spat with Pebblee Poo, who was also on Profile, and made a name dissing the Boogie Boys “Fly Girl”, and both she and Spyder were also on the aforementioned Mr. Magic album).

You also had Doug E Fresh, who seemed to be mainstream (and was in earlier “mainstream” film, Beat Street), who would be dissed by Salt & Pepa’s debut, on Pop Art, and then Shanté would spoof “LaDiDaDi”, as mentioned in the Roxanne article.
The mainstream “Fat Boys” seemed be be countered by this new group called “The Skinny Boys” (and I think there was also a “Fat Girls” as well).

The even earlier pioneers, such as Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambataa, Spoonie Gee, etc. as mentioned in Kurtis Blow’s “AJ Scratch”, were of course respected by the mainstream, and thus could be seen as on the same side of the spectrum.
(Rush was said to be the person you had to go through to get “in” back then, but those who came before Rush were of course already in. A YouTuber named Karceno4life, who seemed to be some sort of old time hip hop insider, recounts a “legend” that a rapper named “Swan Love” was who Run’s “Sucker MC’s” was actually aimed at, and I can’t find that info anywhere else. This was someone who was going to start a group called “the Force” with Run, but Rush and others thought his rhymes were “wack”, and so when Run-DMC finally came together, they thought this guy was bitter at them for not getting a deal; Run taking his style and mocking him by calling himself “Run Love” in the rap. That would actually make this the first “diss record” of hip hop and not “Roxanne’s Revenge”!)

So I, in my typical Ti “categorizing”—Ne “imagining” sort of way imagined rap divided into two camps, the “Krush Groovers” and the “Pop Artists”. (Perhaps I listened to too much politics, which I was becoming well aware of in that age of Reagan, with its clearly defined “Right and “Left”. So Kurtis Blow and allies were like the “right” wing (“conservative”, gatekeepers of “the old guard”), and Shanté and friends were the “left” wing (“liberal”, progressive).

I figured if Magic was down with the Krush Groovers, then I imagined the Pop Artists being featured on a similar DJ album by rival Chuck Chillout or Red Alert. IIRC, one actually did surface sometime afterward, and I clearly remember coming home from college one summer, winter or spring, and hearing Shanté actually doing a promotional for KISS! (Which further added to my ongoing homesickness when I went back. Trying to remember whether she mentioned Red or Chuck in that promo. This, well before the Bridge War, which became solidly centered around the two stations and their DJ’s. Sparky would later do a promo for Red, i.e. “Red! Where’s the beef? DJ Red Alert, gone berserk!“, around the era of the Bridge War, and one of the last things you ever heard from her).
Where the crew that would actually form around Magic was said to be the first “rap collective” (like the ones that began developing in the 90’s), in reality, all the Rush-associated acts (featured in Krush Groove) were in practice such a “collective” as well, but just did not name themselves as such.

So the whole point of all of this is, I came to like Shan, Shanté and the others they associated with because of their “countercultural” stance against the rap mainstream, whose egos had become way too bloated by 1986.
(You also then had Kool Moe Dee, having gone solo after coming out of the old Treacherous Three, going after LL, who had really hit big by then).

From “old” to “new”: Rap further divides

This ‘binary’ appearance of rap all changed with the Bridge War. First, what I called “Krush Groovers”, as the previous “mainstream”, was now starting to be called “the Old School” (a term I previously heard applied to older generations, particularly grandparents and before. Like Dad saying “[someone from his parents’ generation] is from the old school. They believed children should be ‘seen and not heard'”, for instance). The exception was LL, who was on the later end of that wave, and was called “mid”-school.

And now, a whole new crop of rappers coming out were called “the New School”. However, this time-like division began to break away from the old apparent divisions of rap. (Like Moe Dee was technically “old school”, even anonymously dissed as such in LL’s “Jack the Ripper”, in response to him having blasted LL as a “new jack” in “How Ya Like Me Now”, but in his solo career at least, was clearly estranged from what had by then become the mainstream “core” of the “old school” [i.e Rush, et.al] which LL was apart of; and was in some ways more like some of the new school rappers).

So KRS-One on one hand was also going against the mainstream, even putting down the whole notion of “kings” that defined the ego-style of the “Krush Groovers”, along with the rampant commercialism. But then he actually defended LL from Shan! He took a swipe at Run DMC and “Adidas”, but otherwise seemed to respect them. The rest of the “new school” emerging then—Eric B & Rakim, etc. also seemed to be counter-mainstream, but still respecting it. (They, to my surprise, were actually associated with Marley, but were not in the crew with Shan and the others, and were among those KRS would say he was “down” with). Public Enemy was even produced by Russell Simmons. While LL himself would soon go on to hook up with Marley!

So this lends credence to the claim that KRS and Scott La Rock at one point wanted to be in what by then came to be known as the “Juice Crew”, centered around Shanté, Marley, Magic and Shan. (Basically, arising from the core of the old “Pop Artists”; now centered around Magic, aka “Sir Juice”, and having left Pop Art and moving to a new label, Cold Chillin’).
I would have loved that. I think they would have been so good together on the same side, for they were all against the mainstream (save Magic). I would have loved to have all that intellectual lyrical genius on the “side” I favored, in contrast to the ego-tripping, “suped up” sellouts! I even imagine what it would have been like if they had been “down”, and perhaps “South Bronx” could have still been released, but not dissing the Bridge. It would just be like a compliment to it, like Cutmaster DC throwing Brooklyn into the mix in a followup referencing the Bridge war, and another group adding a rap about “Uptown”. (Only a few lines of “South Bronx” are actually directed specifically at The Bridge, and no names are even mentioned in that one).

I imagine, if this happened, then KRS might have directed all that energy, perhaps in unison with Shan, Moe Dee and the others, toward Run, LL and the rest of the so-called “kings”. THAT would have been a BOMB rap war! (KRS always did seem poised to potentially go after LL, like when asked, or more recently, actually say something and then apologize. LL may have been less likely to survive BOTH KRS and Moe Dee on his hide!)
I imagine a counterfactual version of “The Bridge Is Over” even, which could have actually been similar, and even go as far as to still maintain the Bronx vs Queens premise, but directed at the OTHER end of Queens (“Hollis is Over”? “…Can’t sound like LL, or Run DMC…”? and then twist one of their lines to claim they said hip hop stated in Hollis).
That then would have been much more suited, as Shan and the Bridge were not the ones “posing as ‘kings'” and claiming to be the center of hip hop, which was KRS’ whole premise beyond the battle. (And not even the “juice” moniker necessarily implies that, outside of their connection to Magic, who as it happens, was the real perpetrator; next paragraph). Shan is not the one who said he was the “baddest rapper in the history of rap itself” like LL (which is one of the things that drew Moe Dee’s ire. Karceno has another video on a small beef between Shan and Run-DMC, where he points out that eastern Queens ⦅Hollis, etc.⦆ was basically more bourgeois and actually looked down on the poorer southern Queens and the Bridge. He points out that many of the Juice Crew members weren’t even from Queens ⦅some were from Brooklyn, etc.⦆ By all accounts, Queensbridge ⦅representing the “inner city” as much as the Bronx⦆, should have been on the same side as the South Bronx against eastern Queens!)

It should be mentioned, that at the time, I knew nothing about the real reason KRS launched his war against the Juice Crew, which was Magic dissing an earlier record. Scott LaRock (with KRS already by his side) had begun with a pair of good “message” raps, “Success Is the Word”, and “Advance”. By that time, these types of raps were very rare and basically out of fashion, and neither of them did well at all. It was when “Success” was slammed by Magic, that they formed Boogie Down Productions, aligned themselves with Kiss and Red Alert, and began the attack on Queensbridge.
But to me, only hearing the records coming out on the radio, it just looked like a tough guy randomly picking on a weaker guy just to be “bad”. This is why I was totally put off by KRS, and never appreciated his messages and ingenuity back then. (If I knew the whole story, then I would have been more sympathetic, since the arrogance of the rap “mainstream” represented by Magic is precisely what I had been annoyed by; but still wish he hadn’t taken it out on Shan and the crew —and with all the others who would follow him in that. They weren’t the ones who were too puffed up and needed to be taken down a notch or two. He could have just focused on Magic. Even one of these diss followers, Mitch Ski pointed out that it was all falling on Shan: “you’re down with Magic and the whole Juice Crew, but the only one they’re dissing homeboy is you”. This blog https://blackceezar.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/10-reasons-why-krs-one-didn%E2%80%99t-diss-everyone-in-the-juice-crew-but-mc-shan/ covers this point as well).

Marley says in an interview that KRS singled out “Magic, Marley, Shan, Shanté”, because that’s who Magic said “is hip hop” when calling Scott’s demo “wack”. (Now imagine if Magic had pointed to the more popular “LL, Run DMC, etc.” Then we may have seen the teamup I had wished! ⦅aside from Magic⦆. And though I haven’t seen it said anywhere, since Run, LL and the others were way bigger than Shan and even Shante, the Juice Crew was perhaps easier to go after. ⦅He then basically went for the “weakest link”, but if that’s so, then it also means he is not as all-powerful as he puts himself out there to be⦆.
And it almost seems, Magic threw them under the bus by putting them out there like that, rather than the obviously bigger stars. Sensing a sort of betrayal of some sorts even back then, I actually used to think that the “Bridge Is Over” lines “Magic’s mouth is used for sucking” was “Magic counted you for sucking”, following “Instead of helping you out, he gets the same thing I gave you”, which I thought was “…he gives [you] the same thing…”; meaning took advantage of them! ⦅And that’s certainly how Shan feels now! So hearing it that way, the rap didn’t even sound like much of a dis on Magic at all! [Being that was the only mention of him]. This further made me think “what the hell is wrong with this guy? Why would he rap something like this?”⦆
Also, BTW, KRS says in an in interview that the term “the monument sitting right in your face” is specifically what he reacted to as implying hip hop started in the Bridge).

So rap was sort of now splintered into at least three main factions; the “Rush & friends” former “old school” mainstreamers, KRS and those other “new schoolers” he mentions as being “down” with him (Just Ice, Jungle Brothers, Rakim, etc.) and the Juice Crew collective. Even on the Kiss side of things, there was apparently rivalry between those closer to Chuck (such as the Dismasters), and those closer to Red (Jungle Brothers, etc).
The small Philly-based rap circle that remained centered around Pop Art would turn against Shan and Shanté in the war. Former Shanté protegé Steady B would hook up with Cool C (himself actually on another label) and co-write his raps, including “Juice Crew Diss” (mocking Shan and slut-shaming Shanté), and then even do a collaboration with KRS! (Though having likely nothing to do with the battle. Pop Art for while became an imprint of the Jive-RCA label KRS was on).
Public Enemy was sort of inbetween, being associated with the “Old School” Rush, but clearly apart of the emerging “New School”. Arising legend Big Daddy Kane was Juice Crew, but also in the same category as Rakim and the other respected new-schoolers.

In fact, in a video interview of Kane, he reveals that he and [other Shanté protegé] Biz Markie, were actually down with KRS, partly explaining likely why he did not get involved with the Shan battle, aside from ghost-writing Shanté’s entry, with one closing line of “Have A Nice Day” taking (at that) a rather weak shot at Kris/Scott. I had heard rumors of some level of kinship somewhere between the two sides, as well. It was so hard to believe or imagine! (Though Kane is also cited in a video as saying KRS was “the battle he wanted”).
He would have been a much better match for KRS, being in that same class of more respected, popular, clever and tougher sounding rappers. Even more clear, the rap “Wrath Of Kane” would say “Juice Crew’s the family, Slick Rick’s a friend of me; and Doug E Fresh, Stet, KRS and Public enemy”!

Biz and Kane and a couple others had become sort of a separate faction within the Juice Crew. Which may have also figured in their abandonment in the battle and eventual breakup, as Shan and Shanté were the “inner circle” with Magic and Marley, and Shan was said to speak down to Kane at times, so he and Biz were like the distant members. Biz even went as far as to do Red Alert promos for KISS right in the middle of this whole period!
(In passing, the soon-to-emerge West Coast, and later Wu-Tang collective and others would further splinter rap, and the notion of large factions would be irrelevant).

The record battle escalates, and then fizzles out

In both of the battles that ensured; KRS vs Shan, and the similar-to-KRS Moe Dee vs the similar-to-Shan LL, you had these tougher deep voiced rappers going against skinny higher pitched guys (who often tried to seemingly compensate by showing off their bare chests, as both Moe Dee and Mitch Ski would snap on). Only, the outcomes were very different.

Shan responded to “South Bronx” with “Kill That Noise”, but after KRS followed up with “The Bridge is Over”, Shan seemed to let it drop. Poet then took the reins (and occasionally others, such as Butchy B, who did mainly Mr Magic promos, dissing the “lipstick” of the KISS logo, but then added “Beat Down KRS”), but then it died down, and the final answer seemed to be KRS’s “Numero Uno rap”, which was a special version of “Still Number One” aimed at Poet.
There was so much that could have been said in a response, especially the way KRS was simultaneously claiming to be such a “unifier” and even peacemaker of rap (“I try to tell them, we’re all in this together“; [I’m like “HUH?!”], “Stop the Violence”, etc.) yet causing such beef, and adding violence to the lyrics (and even the whole image on the album covers). And the rap pushed the self-glorifying egotism to the hilt, far beyond anything Run and the other old-schoolers had done; now claiming to be even greater than the “kings” (“I throw them down to the floor, they stare up at me in awe…”. Remember, he in the original version of this track, and “My Philosophy” broke down for us how “ruling” was futile, but here, even by the title of the track, he is claiming to rule over the “rulers”! Other lines included “Do not interrupt when I’m teaching; do not speak when grownups are speaking“, “I’m criminal minded, you’re soft minded; just like a dog, here’s a lyric go find it“, “WE ARE, without a doubt THE STAR”, “What possessed you boy, to go freestyle? What are you stupid? You must be senile! Poor child, I’ll pull that card and smile…”. and “I haven’t heard a decent thing from you yet; creativity is something hard to get” [Edit: more in comment below]).
Don’t know how anybody could ever swallow all of that and not answer! He is ingenious, but it just seemed to be increasingly going to his head, and he really needed to be taken down a notch or two, —or three, or a hundred or a thousand!

But (listening in vain on the Friday and Saturday night DJ shows, including even switching to Magic/Marley at times) nothing ever surfaced. Shan made a couple more albums that didn’t seem to include any responses to it (at least not direct ones), but then dropped out, and Poet seemed to just disappear as quickly as he appeared.

(As we enter the 90’s, the whole setup dissolves, as Magic and Marley have left BLS, and are eventually replaced by DJ Premier, where I first heard his name on the rap shows. Being mainly a producer, it’s hard to find info on his run on the radio show; like it’s not mentioned on Wikipedia, though several broadcasts or albums produced from the shows are on YouTube. He would become very big, and get involved with a lot of acts, including both KRS and Poet, ultimately producing the “Victory” track featuring both. So he sort of brought back together a large chunk of hip hop, where the main division now became East vs West coast.
Inbetween, Chuck Chillout reportedly went to WBLS for a couple of years, but I didn’t remember that. Red Alert stayed at Kiss until ’94, then they were bought out and became R&B only, and Red and the rap all moved to new sister station HOT97.

Of note; I find that there was shortly after the Bridge War, a strong diss track against KRS by another “KRS”, Kool Rock Steady: “You Ain’t Nobody”. This was the guy who pioneered “hip house” ⦅that mix of hip hop and house music best embodied by “It Takes Two” and his own “Turn Up The Bass”⦆, and was Bronx rap pioneer Afrika Bambataa’s cousin, though himself from Chicago. He took offense at KRS-1 apparently dissing hip-house, and completely dressed down his claim to “rule the party” and claim to have such “knowledge”; speaking “like you did ten years of college”. (You wonder why KRS1 would be against hip house, when Bambataa’s “Planet Rock” and subsequent hits are what sparked off “house music” to begin with, and so were the first blends of rap with that electronic sound).
I never knew anything about this until now. I wish I had heard it back then, as he mentions the Bridge war, contrasting himself “I’m not MC Shan, or King Poet…”. I would have felt much more satisfied with that as the “final word” of that battle era. ⦅Not able to find whether KRS-1 answered it or not⦆. I wonder why Magic and the others never played this! Or, maybe they did, and it was when I was in the Air Force. I didn’t know where the rap-playing stations were in TX, CO and CA, and so had fallen out of the rap circuit during ’89).

The other main battle going on simultaneously, and its opposite outcome

Even though Moe Dee was clearly slamming LL, far harder than what KRS ever said to Shan; LL managed to “win” that one, by in essence “tiring him out”, where Moe Dee was the one whose career faltered, and he just dropped it after a while. The same with Ice T, and Hammer, who had also joined in making snaps at LL, which he would respond to in a later*[see track list, below] record (after they had already quit the record business. Basically, as we see these days, “winning a battle” is now defined by “making the last diss record”; i.e. “having the last word”, just as much as it is for winning an actual battle on stage. And that was how I saw it.
It’s basically a more upgraded and poetic version of the old “ranking out” game we used to do in the street ⦅where “your mama” often got called out, An early rap had even been done cautioning about this, back in the halcyon days of the “message” style⦆. So to “win”, they just needed to not give up, but then since the goal is now selling the records, that might make it more difficult to hang in there and devote so much time to a back-and-forth battle like that and have a company publish it).

LL, while looking and sounding a lot like Shan in the beginning, at one point deepened his voice and developed a lot of muscles, and became basically a sex symbol, especially with some of the sexual-but-in-a-more-‘romantic’-way raps he started doing. So this is what I believe saved him (in addition to being so connected to Rush anyway, whose enterprise expanded into a big multimedia empire). So he of course continued to “blow up” as a famous rapper and then screen star, and now is basically an “all-around” Hollywood celebrity. (Where Ice T and others also became bigger on screen, but not making raps as much anymore).

So in this instance, the “lighter”, higher pitched guy actually won for a change, but he was also apart of the highly commercialized “mainstream” (which I, again, never cared for, and was precisely part of Moe Dee’s whole issue with him in the first place).
So while not physical or especially lyrical “strength”, it was still “power” that prevailed; only in this case, commercial power. Which is really the greatest power in this country anyway, beyond the street environment hip hop is centered on.

Here is the list for their battle:
MD How Ya Like Me Now (1987 “dissing LL Cool J for some Behind-The-Scenes offenses”)
LL Jack The Ripper (1989; “Jingling Baby” also said to contain indirect shots at Moe Dee)
MD Let’s Go (1989)
LL To Da Break of Dawn (1990; indirect but clear shots, and also Hammer and Ice T).
LL Mama Said Knock You Out (1990-1 “BLAAAAW, how ya like me now?“)
MD Death Blow (1991, answers/mocks both previous raps; “‘Star Trek shades’; man cut the joke!“)
LL I Shot Ya [Remix] (1995; “Crushed Moe Dee, Ice T and Hammer’s girls“…).

Article breaking down the whole feud:
https://genius.com/discussions/14965-Rap-beef-review-kool-more-dee-vs-ll-cool-j-who-won-with-poll
(And the poster and most commenters say Moe Dee won, lyrically. “Even if Moe Dee replied only with Let’s Go, he still would’ve won”)

The bad “narrative” forming down to the present

So the natural narrative that arose was that KRS “took out Shan”, and even “took Queensbridge off the map” as others bragged for him. The remaining “Juice Crew” rappers, who were having better success— Biz, Kane, Kool G Rap, etc., just seemed to go their own separate ways. Shanté would increasingly launch an all out crusade against all other female rappers and then suddenly drop out (as they all responded, and she was dead silent in all these new simultaneous “wars” she started, and never came back. I was frustrated on how hard she was on them, who never did anything to her, compared to how relatively soft she had been with KRS and Sparky, who actually had started with her. This actually became another occasion for KRS to take a shot at her, as he even opened Lyte’s response, which also looped a sample of his harsh dis of her in “The Bridge Is Over”).

A new generation of rappers would eventually revive the “QB” name, most notably Nas. But by that time, I was so disgusted by the way rap had gone (of which the KRS hard core style “victory” was the par-for-the-course travesty), I no longer followed anyone (other than the Christian rappers appearing at Big Splash, particularly the Bronx-bred “Storytellas”, and would otherwise only know of the most popular secular raps you heard everywhere. I at times did watch Video Music Box or Yo! MTV Raps to keep up to date in the rap scene for awhile, but gradually lost interest).

This was the age where the aggression and violence rapped about were starting to spread to real life, and the whole image embraced the worst stereotypes of blacks and criminality, which were at the same time, festering virtually unanswered across the tracks in the white conservative sphere, which is figuring heavily in their now being able to rise up to elect a rather bizarre choice for president, with clear racist connections, and now their voice becoming more loud and radically blatant in what’s being called the “alt-right”, as a major rash of police, steadily taking out blacks in the streets occurs, and blacks criticized for complaining about it, because “look at all your thuggery and murders in the cities”!
(I just now find another good “allstar” positive message rap, from ’91, “Heal Yourself” from the H.E.A.L. Human Education Against Lies ‎– Civilization Vs. Technology album, featuring KRS, Run DMC, Kane, Salt & Pepa, etc. I of course knew about “Stop The Violence”/Self-Destruction”, and West Coast’s “All in the Same Gang”, but these messages fell on deaf ears, while the whole “gangsta” theme it was speaking against, and were supported by many of the same acts, was what was taking over).

As late as almost 10 years ago (until the Marley/Poet collaboration), reflecting how KRS “won” over Queensbridge (after discovering and contributing to the Wiki article, and then KRS claiming to be “Hip Hop incarnate” and talking about creating a hip hop nation), and how it figured archetypally with all the life issues I was ruminating over in my own midlife battles (where the “strong” always “win” in this world), I was imagining, wishing I could go back in time and write the much needed response to “Numero Uno” and send it to Poet or someone. I would have taken an intellectual approach to match KRS’ (us being the same [Keirsey] “Intelligence Variant”; NTP “Engineer”, see below), which I believe was the real key to matching wits with him. (I would have gone [practically] line-by-line, responding to all those big swelling words and claims!)
Shan came back with a more defensive stance (though titled “Kill That Noise”), while Poet took the opposite extreme, of almost pure aggression (especially in the second record). It was intellect KRS had the final word with in “Numero Uno”, which the rap rubbed in their faces; with the aggressive tone only adding the further “street cred”.

Poet would say in an interview somewhere, he initially gave up, because KRS was becoming too big. There actually was another record after the second KRS diss, c.’89, which should have been the response to “Numero Uno”, that was called “Massacre”, and is typically battle themed, but is very general (as common at that time), and does not mention any names or rap line references.
I find this out not too long before the Marley-produced reconciliation, through internet resources where I would follow Poet’s career and see that he afterward joined other groups off and on, and would occasionally take little retrospective (though anonymous) shots at KRS (bearing that same latent old resentment as Shan, who guest starred in one of these raps), up into the 2000’s. “The Bridge was never over, we left our mark”, one of these went. But that’s not how it looked! What it looked like (as KRS is retelling it now) is that an all new “QB” was effectively created by Nas! It’s actually not so much about “Queensbridge”, which is a place; a housing project that will probably always be there. It was really about the “Juice Crew”, which was “over” after all that, and Nas and the new QB rappers are not considered apart of.

When reading of these little-known responses, it was like the whole thing was so foul. KRS “won”; his victory narrative firmly established, and by now pretty big, he could brag about it in a “matter-of-fact” way, and the presumed “taken-out” losers seemed to give up in ’88, and can now only make these passive-aggressive little “ancient history” references up to over a decade later when everyone else and all of rap had long moved on and no one else was even thinking about that battle anymore.

Just now, in getting the above list of entries from the Wiki article, in converting this from a comment (on the Roxanne article) to its own post, I find that an earlier one of these raps, called “Without Warning” (performed as “PHD”) was a more direct response, sampling two bits of “Numero Uno”, but was otherwise similar to “Massacre” in being very general (i.e. addressing “rappers/MC’s” rather than naming one in particular. He does respond to one of the samples at the end, with “You called me soft?”, “What are you, bassin'”? and “Did I serve those punks? [yes]”. It was also ’91, which was three years after Numero Uno already. ⦅The rap is so clean in language though, compared to what was by then popular, and even his other stuff on the same album; with only one “N” word, and so seems older than that⦆).
I would never hear of any of these.

This ended when KRS put out the album with Marley which included a track with Blaq Poet. In the main track, “Rising”, he even spoke well of Shan, in explaining in the rap why a diss record was the only way he could get into the industry back then.
You didn’t hear much from Shan, who seemed to have retired completely from the industry. When you did hear from him in interviews, you could detect this long-standing old resentment. (In total contrast, Blaq Poet would two years later do an interview saying, regarding working with KRS, “What we did back in the day was real hip-hop. We didn’t really battle face-to-face but we got s___ out. Go back to making your songs because you’re going to waste the whole rest of your career talking about this nigga? Nah. Get it over with. Let the fans decide who won the battle. It’s not like you’re going to stop selling records. There’s too much pride and people are getting punked.” http://www.djpremierblog.com/2009/05)

Temperament/Type: the likely “personality” side of the clash

Becoming familiar with personality theory during this time, and typing everyone I could think of, Shan stood out as as a “Melancholy” temperament, which is very common in the black community. A pure Melancholy is likely an ISTJ type (introverted, Sensing, Thinking, Judging), whose main world view is “introverted Sensing”, which filters reality through past fact and experience.
So the type can hold on to a lot of resentment and never forget or let it go; hence being named “melancholy” in the first place. Yet, being introverted, it can be rather passive. So rather than venting quickly, they will hold it in, maybe even appear to pass it off and move on (which they will often pitch as a philosophy in life, especially when giving advice to others), but nevertheless let it build up and explode, after many years of non-resolution.

KRS on the other hand seems to be an ENTP (extraverted, iNtitive, Thinking, Perceiving) or the Sanguine-Choleric. This is a combination of the two “extroverted” temperaments, which (as most “classic temperament” profile systems testify) then seems to amplify the aggressiveness of both. (The other blend of the two, the similar ESTP, is the Choleric-Sanguine, which is also pretty aggressive).
KRS is obviously very “intuitive or “conceptual” (being a Five Percenter and/or “Khamet” [i.e. Metu Neter], which are very “heady” intellectual religions, with his name standing for “Knowledge Reigns Supreme”, which likely has a whole deep theme behind it, as do other Five Percenter and Khamet names and concepts), and seems to show Ti and Ne (introverted Thinking with extraverted iNtuition) “genius”. (BTW, Shan was also reportedly once a Five Percenter, but left. Never heard of anyone leaving the religion. This to me, is another evidence of an S preference, as S’s might not remain as intellectually committed to something like that).

I believe this “N” focus also leads to a problem, in concepts like “Criminal Minded”, and with the guns on the cover and all, which he always said was not promoting violence, but really is metaphorical [i.e. iNtuitive perspective] for street smarts (he has said specifically, the album cover mean “think violently, but act righteously”), and rap battle skill. This seems to end up getting taken literally [especially a tendency for those with a more Sensory focus] by many people.
And the processing of these implications will be largely subconscious, and thus can start being acted out without even thinking of it. That’s why I believe these concepts did still promote violence, even if they say they didn’t intend to.

Like the whole “take you out” expression, or “slaying MC’s”, KRS’s “bodybags” (“My Philosophy”), etc. which all literally mean murder, but of course are really metaphors for defeating rivals on the mic. However, during this time, the imagery was becoming more graphic, including guns, and even this far back, while the Bridge War never became physically violent, it could have, with Poet reportedly threatening to go after BDP armed (and he would say in one of the later raps that thankfully it never came to that), and then Just Ice would threaten the same when Poet dissed him.
So of course, a lot of the aggressive words are also defensive, against disses or even real life offenses, and thus would fall under self-protection (survival), which is a more “practical” [S] cause. Intuitive or not, who’s going to ignore actual threats from someone else?
This will add to the whole image being promoted and then, outright glorified (or at least “romanticized”). So then, beefs between industry factions would famously begin leading to death in the 90’s.

What it looks like, is that the rappers saw no contradiction in the different messages they were sending because they seemed to assume or expect people would take the whole “criminal/violence” imagery figuratively, but then take the calls for stopping the actual violence literally; but they didn’t realize that in many people’s psyches, it doesn’t get sorted out that way, and what actually ends up happening is that the violent imagery is what takes hold and gets acted out, while the calls to peace are then brushed off or ignored, as (at best) an impractical hypothetical ideal that can’t actually be lived up to. Again, who can survive if we’re not prepared to fight and kill or be killed ourselves? We hope people will listen to “reason”, but if they don’t, then what else can we do but be tougher than they are?

Where other recording geniuses, such as Stevie or Steely, seem to be more Ti with Se (extraverted Sensing), which is useful for the melody and harmony of [true] “music”, rap has mainly the rhythm (with sampled or electronic background music beneath it), and is otherwise really spoken poetry (set to the rhythm), and thus doesn’t need as much of the Sensory mastery required for writing and playing full music. (A lot of artists advocating traditional music structure often complained about rap, and also other electronic styles, and how anyone could just throw it all together without even knowing how to play an instrument).
So the mastery lies in the words, rhymes and concepts.

ENTP is actually considered “role-informative”, which is softer than “directive communication”. This, from the Sanguine being in the “social” area, represented by the E and the “open” P. But in the leadership area, it’s the harder Choleric, which is the NT, which is about “mastery”, and is very competitive, and doesn’t back down. He does seem very “directive”, (acknowledging I could be wrong), but the next similar type, ESTP (which is common in the black community, especially in the “party” scene), I doubt, because I think he’s a clear NT.

(The “directiveness” analogue for the leadership area is “structure focus”, which definitely fits, and can lead to similar communication and behavior. And the Sanguine in the leadership area would not be as persistent in a battle.
Poet might very likely be an ESTP, the way he came out swinging fiercely, including at Just Ice and several other MC’s in another concurrent rap back then ⦅”eighty sa’en, I was crazy sa’en…” he recounts in “Bio”⦆; but quickly dropped it. Shanté might be that type also, behaving pretty much the same way.
Then there’s the ENTJ ⦅pure Choleric⦆, which is the next type I would go for [for KRS] if this is wrong, but he doesn’t really seem like a J, and his Thinking seems introverted (stimulated by internal analysis), not extraverted. ⦅He also “parents” with it, in the whole “Teacher” theme, with Parent being the complex carrying the auxiliary, by which we reach out to support or “teach” others⦆. The “directive” Choleric in the social area would be more “dry” or aloof-seeming in interviews and lectures.
On the other hand, in a recent FB type discussion, someone suggested LL was ESTP, but he actually seems more like KRS in overall personality, including having to have the last word, so I think ENTP. His background most likely not as rough as KRS, that’s why he doesn’t seem quite as “hard”, and he didn’t becomes as “philosophical”, so he would represent the more familiar “lighter” side of Ne dominance. Moe Dee might be INTP, like me. Similar to KRS with the lyrical ingenuity, but introverted, and thus not as aggressive).

But while Sanguine is “friendly”, it is also still aggressive, with a “hot temper” like the Choleric. They just don’t hold on to it as long. I could tell you about an ENTP typology friend, who loudly defended my wife and I from a restaurant owner or whatever, who wasn’t being totally nice (and she now seems ready to battle, over the escalating race-and-politics issues, in her new home state). The Sanguine often rapidly “swings” between emotional states. But the addition of the Choleric will give it more of an “anchor” on the aggressive side.

So KRS when he’s talking (not rapping) carries the “friendly” air of an “informative” type, and even his teaching style is very pleasant, where other types are very “dry”. So he looks like he’ll easily accept you and be cool with you, as long as you’re not attacking or dissing him. The social Sanguine (“Inclusion” area, or “Interaction Style” in type) is readily accepting of anyone. If you do get into a beef, then he responds rapidly and brutally and won’t back down. This is the Choleric, in the area of “Control” (or “leadership” or “action”, which is ultimately what Keirsey’s temperament groups are about), with the Sanguine’s social ‘extroversion’ (expressiveness) only fueling the fiery reaction. Yet at the same time, if time passes, and the other side is willing to quash the beef, then the accepting Sanguine will readily restore friendship and bear no resentment. And this is what we saw with the Marley and Poet collaboration.

30th year: The beef resumes!

So forward to this [past] year (as of 2016), Shan began doing new interviews, and basically reignited the old beef, and you can just hear all the old resentment coming out. Not following rap regularly, I would occasionally hear about this this past Spring, likely from Facebook posts, but didn’t follow up on it, and the months passed. You can see this progress here (this last one, just posted today; i.e. original “Roxanne” article comment time), with Shan even freestyling a 3+ minute rap in an over the phone interview (which really should have been done back in ’87), and then KRS in his usual fashion, quickly responding with a “hardcore” track.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/murdermastermusicshow/2016/04/02/episode-253hiphop-legend-mc-shan
http://hiphopwired.com/2016/04/08/mc-shan-responds-krs-one-apology-demands-vicious-bars/
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/murdermastermusicshow/2016/04/08/episode-256will-mc-shan-and-krs-ever-unite
http://allhiphop.com/2016/04/09/krs-one-releases-new-diss-song-false-accusations-mc-shan/
http://hiphopwired.com/2016/04/09/krs-one-replies-mc-shan-diss-s-h-n-audio

http://www.vladtv.com/article/222379/mc-shan-on-krs-one-dissing-him-on-south-bronx-bridge-is-over?

Shan naturally resents the claim the KRS “took him out” and having to live with the ‘stigma’ of “losing” the battle. He would claim he wanted to record a response to “The Bridge Is Over”, but Marley Marl stopped him. (Likewise, he has a video saying Simmons similarly stopped LL from responding to Shan’s dis of him, “Beat Biter”).

So all of this coming out now is 30 years late (which KRS makes certain to mention in his response track). It looks odd to hold that for so long, and only now come out with it (it looks “passive-aggressive”, which is basically, in street lingo, all the more “weak”, so he better come back strong and stick with it), but this is how an introverted, but “directive” Si type will respond. Extraverted non-SJ’s will more quickly get into and out of a fight and think less about it. Also, ENTP is what’s called an “Aligning” type (Ti/Fe), where ISTJ is “Ordering” (Te/Fi). So tertiary Fi (introverted Feeling) is likely playing a part in Shan’s approach, and is not syncing with KRS’s tertiary Fe (extraverted Feeling), which favors external harmony and was evident in the willingness to resolve the issue in a conciliatory way (plus all his “[down] with us/against us” lines, like in the old battles).
I also wonder if Shan could be possibly INFP, which is a Phlegmatic or Supine, which are also pretty passive, and also even more likely to allow others to control them. The type is very close, cognitively, to the ISTJ, using the same functional perspectives in a slightly different order. I think I often don’t recognize pure Supines in the black community because they, from what I’ve seen, learn to hide their passive temperament behind the street toughness they adopt from others (where I had the Choleric in the mix that resisted peer pressure to change my behavior). So they will look like all the Melancholies.
If so, Si would be tertiary (like it is for me), and still hold on to resentments like this, perhaps even more than the mature Si of SJ types.

If for some reason that much time had passed on a beef with me, and I still had resentment, but the other person was that friendly in resolving it, I might not have been able to just let it go like that, but would still appreciate the olive branch, and find some way to express my frustration over the negative consequences, and not come out swinging like Shan did. KRS really spoke well of Shan, on record (in “Rising”, even going as far as to call “the Bridge” a “dope rhyme”; now he’s of course taking it all back), and in interviews (saying he wouldn’t have had a career if Shan had ignored him, but he didn’t, because “he knew what hip hop is”). I would never be able to come out like this with someone who turned to speak well of me like that. I’m not sure what I would do. Perhaps do the interview freestyle, but not attacking like that, but nevertheless calling out the assertion made (where battling someone, claimed in a triumphalistic way “I took Shan out already”!) Really, I would prevent such a scenario in the first place by never having quit the battle in the first place, even if it meant leaving Marley right then. Nothing good could ever come out of swallowing something like that.
I would only come out like that once it is established that the beef is still on or at least unresolved.

If KRS is an ENTP, then Si is inferior, which is also fairly unconscious, but being several months older than I am, should figure more in consciousness now, as you can see evidenced in his rap “Rising” covering the recollections of how the beef started (which includes great detail, though not perfectly remembered. This to me is another evidence of him being an “Inquiring Awareness” or Si/Ne compatible type, and with the Ti/Fe, an “Enhancing” Intentional Style). So he will have a nostalgic recount of history, which we do see a lot from him elsewhere (like most notably in 1993’s “Outta Here”, which greatly resembled “Rising”; and he will bring up past facts, like against Shan now), but it is still part of an “inferior” complex, and avoidant or at least intimidated by too many negative past facts and details. For me, as a similar type: the introverted counterpart, Si moves up to tertiary, and is similarly nostalgic, and vulnerable-feeling. Though it is also closer to consciousness; close enough to really flare up at past negative occurrences.

Shan’s dilemma, and key mistakes

But as these are but divisions of reality, neither perspective is more “right” than the other, and the past is something that can come up (from the “shadows”) and wreak havoc, and so should be dealt with.
Given the overall “narrative” that has become entrenched, the man does have a lot of reason to be resentful! He got the really bum deal out of the whole thing. So upon studying the whole battle (especially when contributing to Wikipedia and learning all the details behind the scenes), I began lamenting the irony of KRS being angered by Magic, and yet he and Marley walk out of it with their careers unscathed (even getting bigger, in fact), while Shan takes the fall for their actions. Former Juice Crew rapper Craig G even later turned against him and effectively rubbed this in his face in a rap. Now hearing that Marley specifically kept him from fighting back more, makes it all the more messed up.
And Shan also points out the business aspect of it, where Marley (actually his cousin) was very shrewd, and as with as many other producer-performer associations, apparently did not give him all he was due. He also says Cold Chillin’ label CEO Fly Ty especially, was screwing them as well.
(So he also focuses on the money aspect of it, answering the natural charge that he’s probably only doing this now because he “needed money”. So he’s claiming to have been doing well over the years, with the proceeds off of the hit single Snow collaboration “Informer” and others).

If Marley was really the problem, you wonder why, as KRS says, he didn’t pick up the battle all of that time inbetween (after he parted ways with him). But what he seemed to always express during that whole time, was that he ‘didn’t have to’ respond; for “I gave him a career already” [edit: quote in comment below]; “it made us more famous”, etc. Even on “Kill That Noise”, his answer to being accused of saying hip hop started in Queens was simply “they’re only trying to jump on the bandwagon” (which Cool C would only throw back at him). While not quite as braggadocious as LL and the other “kings” on the mic, he did have an arrogant streak, as in the way he treated Kane, and apparently Craig G as well, and stuck his nose up at joining in “The Symphony” rap. (But then he says he opted out because he knew Marley wouldn’t give them the money for it. He used to say they were just making a “tape”, but then would make them into records, and not pay the performers). So he basically isolated himself, and also underestimated the threat before him, until it was way too late.

If that weren’t enough, I’m reading that (likely based on this notion), they would do shows together, and KRS would perform “The Bridge Is Over”, and Shan would basically play along with it!. In fact, Juice Crew member Masta Ace has a video (YT v=YkMYu_wGEZA) pointing this out, and saying “You get on stage, with a guy who’s dissing you…the song is dissing you, and you’re doing ad-libs. Once that happened, it’s over! It’s squashed! There’s nothing else that needs to happen, just high five; keep it moving”, and thus begging them to stop this now. There was also the similar well known Sprite commercial, showing them in a boxing ring, with the groove of “The Bridge Is Over” playing, and they both ad-lib something to the effect of KRS winning. Even back then, I didn’t like that whole image being presented!
(BAD MOVE! I would never do something like that! You don’t do something like that all that time, and then do a turnaround and revolt against it later.
This is one of the things that makes him sound Supine or Phlegmatic, where I, again have the Choleric in the mix, that would never go for something like that).
I, right after KRS and Marley’s reconciliation, would then enter a very similar battle online, with a so-called “type expert” who didn’t like me sharing my ideas on a list. We would go back and forth off and on at different times, then there was a whole blowout that caught me off guard, and I felt totally humiliated and needed to regroup. As the type concepts, which I was still learning, were involved, I even came to have some uncertainty about my type, and then tried to consider some of what the person was saying and move on. This “move on” part would later be used against me. But when I saw how the concepts were being twisted (to justify the other person’s own rash behavior based on alleged “mutually shadow functions” in particular archetypal positions, which supposedly couldn’t be “coped” with), and then finally verified my real type, the person felt attacked, and suddenly came back snarking, anchored by an [ever since] accusation of me going back on a “truce” we had and reigniting the beef. Not only was it not a real truce, but the person had been making snarky or gloating remarks about the whole affair over the course of months in the interim, (and then have falling outs of their own with others as well and storming off from that; this after having tried to make me the black sheep of the group. The person felt “railroaded” off the list when challenged by the others, but now this is being tagged on me).
In further clashes (including where I went back and tried to answer earlier comments I wasn’t able to answer before, and then the spouse eventually taking over after the person cut me off completely), I would (among other things) be chided for “holding on” to that stuff for so long. These are introverted iNtuitive (NJ) types, for whom Si is “shadow”, so past stuff isn’t as relevant, and should just be forgotten. However, the whole point of the theory is that this stuff, when unresolved, does still remain in the “shadow” from where it does arise and cause problems.
I admit I should have handled it much better, but that should have made it all the more clear, especially to them, being the primary online teachers of the archetypal model of type, that the introverted Feeling they constantly pointed out was a “Demonic” function that undermined my whole aim and position, rather than being “supportive” as a preferred function.
I mention all this, because I can identify with Shan’s position, and made a similar mistake in not taking an opportunity for a better more straightforward resolution earlier on; but the difference is that I didn’t play along with it, but was rather dealing with someone who takes a totally different tactic than KRS, in turning the tables and casting you as the aggressor and getting their “last word” by taking the defensive position and shutting you out, but nevertheless getting their attacks through via others
.

So still, it would carry a stigma, as he recognizes now, and KRS mentioning “taking Shan out” one last time seemed to be the last straw. In fairness to Shan, this is really what “re-ignited” the beef. Yes, he may have “quashed” it on his end by playing along, but if the beef is really quashed, then the winner shouldn’t go gloating about it, for then it’s not really “quashed” on his end; it’s simply “won”, which implies it’s still “a thing”; it’s still implicit; hence being able to be brought up anytime, to be bragged about. (Especially if he ever performs “The Bridge Is Over”, and as an all time hit, how could he not? So it’s technically “past”, but unless the loser has died, it’s still lying dormant, and has the potential to be revived. It’s not a stable situation, it’s a “false-resolution” [scientifically, a “false-vacuum”], as I called my own experience, which is easily unraveled by poking the wound with careless acts or statements). Some say Shan will only add another defeat to the one 30 years ago, and if he would leave it alone, then he would be remembered more for the positive side of his career. But not when KRS keeps bringing up “taking him out”!
So in reality, both of them messed it up!

Where to go from here?

I would like to see them resolve this on stage (and you can throw in the LL-MoeDee battle that never occurred; that LL had apparently shied away from back in the day), and hope Shan can do it, not being as active as KRS all these years, and appearing [visually] frail (which KRS and everyone is attributing to the crack I believe he has admitted to recovering from). Though he has actually started to release a few new singles, (adopting the modern 90’s to the present Eminem etc. influenced rap style, which is of course hardcore and vulgar), and he does seem to still have the voice. He does say he has pages of rhymes written for him, that he “won’t know where all of this is coming from”. Wow; 30 years of held-in resentment, welling up like that!
KRS released a second single dissing him, apparently part of an album project coming out, and he’s basically waiting for a response. Shan’s responses now are mostly by interview. It sounds like when asked, Shan is pointing to the moneymaking aspect of the situation. It’s pointed out that this might actually sell. Some commenters are saying this is just what hip hop needs today, since they’re all in agreement that the modern Southern based style has rendered hip hop “dead”. So I hope that doesn’t become a cop-out.

While he’s making much of the fact that they never had a live battle, and thus Shan couldn’t have been “taken out”; it’s still true, that it could have contributed to his downfall, or at least on the surface, it looks like it. So that technically would be “taken out”. He draws the analogy to him dissing LL, so he obviously didn’t “take him [LL] out”. But if it had created the “stigma” he even testifies to, then it could be said he [Shan] was taken out. But instead, LL never went out; he got bigger and bigger in fact, and that’s what makes the comparison impossibly false. (With Cool C, who he also mentions, he was already being barraged by KRS, so for that reason, no one would ever attribute taking him out to this one record act that briefly joined in. However, the similar Mitch Ski, who did a similar diss record around the same time, would actually claim in that record that he, representing “Brooklyn”, took out the Bridge, while South Bronx only “helped us out”. That’s what Shan could have mentioned. BTW, Cool C, hooked up with Steady B in rhyme and in real life crime, has for years been on death row for a murder, which keeps getting stayed, while Steady faces a lesser life in prison as an accomplice).

The response (both spoken and the rap) Shan has done so far seem good (even liked by some commenters). KRS’s disses are ingenious and intimidating, but there are holes in them you can go after, which Shan did in the interviews. Like mocking his “four, three, two, one”, and some sort of scatting he was doing (“deedle, deedle, deedle” or something like that), which are basically “filler”, which may make for an ingeniously nice sounding product as in many of his raps, but (as in that case), it can get silly (Shan called him a “Care Bears rapper” on that), where again, a more intellectual content would be stronger. Crediting Nas for resurrecting QB, by claiming “Shan” is just “Nas spelled backwards”, while again, a strong insult, is also really silly if you think about it.

Shan also pointed out “You ain’t even from the Bronx”, which was a great slam, but again, is 30 years too late, as the whole Bronx vs Queens aspect of the battle is long past relevance. Perhaps that would have been in his immediate response to “The Bridge Is Over”, where it would have been a perfect comeback, instantly blowing up the whole premise he built his career on! We would possibly look back on that battle very differently today. (Though perhaps it wasn’t as widely known back then that KRS wasn’t originally from the Bronx. They all seemed to grant it to him, and he did live in the Bronx at the time. I remember hearing later, that he had been in Brooklyn before, and this where he was actually born, and I immediately thought this made the whole “South Bronx” premise ironic, but it wasn’t until later, with him telling more of his life story, including where he had been homeless and basically all over the place, that it was more clear).

Being an introverted Thinking (TP) type like me, logical consistency is what our rational drive is, and we like to pick out inconsistencies in others’ logic (and even our own). You see him doing this all the time, when discussing race and politics (like Malcolm X, who he is rather similar to, and I also believe was ENTP). But we of course are not perfectly logical, and so will miss inconsistencies in our own logic, especially once the ego becomes fixated upon a particular view of something. Hence his weak spot will be inconsistencies, like claiming to be a peacemaker while promoting beef and violence (which my Ti easily recognized. It’s judged “false” or “incorrect” according to my own analysis of the situation). There’s also several videos of old guys from the Bronx questioning some of his recounts of the history of hip hop up there, especially regarding the Zulu Nation. (Which would figure all the more being he wasn’t originally from there. Again, Si is inferior if he’s driving off of dominant Ne, which can get caught up in inferred ideas and outright flights of fancy if not grounded enough with the judgment function. And those guys interviewed might be the typical ISTJ’s whose whole main perspective is Si, so they would remember everything clearly).

Evidence of this is “shadowy” (rash, sudden) reactions when they are pointed out. The PM Dawn rapper reportedly had claimed KRS was not “practicing what he preached”, supposedly leading to the physical attack on him. He was trapped and the intellect had reached its end; he felt his integrity was at stake so he reacted (Demonic extraverted Sensing, taking the opportunity to bum rush the show) and then came up with a very non-intellectual blanket justification; that he was “light attacking darkness” or something like that. (No explanation of what defined light and darkness in that case and what determined him being on the “light” side. He was the one caught in a lie. As I mentioned in the above fine print regarding my own experience, a “demonic” eruption like that can undermine your aims.
I just now see in an edit for this, that this actually led to Das Efx and Ice Cube jumping in, to call him a hypocrite, and he released “We In There” basically calling out the whole “gangsta” image ⦅e.g. they just “bit” Criminal Minded⦆, saying they aren’t actually down to shoot nobody, ⦅i.e. like they always rapping about⦆, and are not actually “running from the police”, but would make good prey for the prison rapists. Never heard this, and never knew he actually went after the gangsta premise, including a major West Coast rapper, whom, [even he] apparently never responded.
You always used to think of the contrast between the tough street “hood” who is either not very intelligent, or if he is intelligent, it is mis-directed and never put to good use; and the diametric opposite intellectual “nerd”, who couldn’t last in the streets and thus stays inside in the books, and this guy is like the total “coniunctio” of them; the best of both wrapped up in one!)

In a more organized “battle”, such as a show, or even response tracks, where it’s already clear you’re battling the other person, and you’re already saying all sorts of hard disses against him, hopefully he wouldn’t get physical like that, but he could still be trapped in his own words.
For now, the internet is conveying the battle, and that’s allowing both sides to get their shots in. Fueling the fire was Karceno4life, who has been rigorously chiding Shan for reentering the battle (which will “just make the defeat worse”, and talking about “you didn’t learn the first time; he has to ‘school’ you all over again”), and leading to an actual social media battle between the two of them. (Twitter—>Instagram video—>YouTube).

When hip hop started, battles were on the mic. When they became big enough to start making records, in the 80’s, then battles were on “wax”.
So now, the internet is the new medium, and we really don’t have to wait for a new record to be pressed anymore for them to answer each other. (Like commenters on these videos argue either way, and so the fans, once totally voiceless can be like the foot soldiers launching the two sides’ attacks against each other for them. So some have pointed out, for instance how Shan is the one who tells the truth, while KRS, or the YouTuber himself distorts things.
Of course, social media doesn’t require the same skill as the mic; whether live or even in the record studio. But it’s something, now). At least Shan got to finally break his silence, and “Kill That Noise” is no longer his final statement in the battle. Perhaps some sort of resolution can come through that.

So if they do have their showdown, in whatever form, then perhaps afterward, they too can finally team up, as other fans seem to be wishing.

First 9-11, now 11-9: Hard to Believe!

I myself don’t know what’s going to happen now, but on the other hand, I too figured Hillary would just be the “same ‘ol, same ‘ol”. I had liked how the angry, dog-whistling Right was divided earlier in the race, when the other Republican contenders were still vying against him for the nomination. The Christians almost solidly were against him, in favor of Rubio or especially Cruz. When they dropped out, they began to come back together, against Hillary (the Christians now compromising the moral stance they previously had against Trump).
If she won, it would just be a continuation of the last eight years, with them all against Obama. If he won, than they would have everything they want, and seemingly would no longer have a liberal scapegoat. (But of course, they could always say that any problems are really Obama’s fault, for “messing things up so bad”, which is what some did when they had Bush in, along with the Congress. Blaming the previous administration, which they excoriated Obama for, would all of a sudden become good. Or, if problems are undeniably Trumps’ fault, I’ve already seen a meme saying they had to elect him because of Obama. You can see this sentiment expressed right here: http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr “If you’re a leftist reading this, you…probably can’t understand why someone would get so bent out of shape about being told their words are hurtful. You probably think it’s not a big deal and these people need to get over themselves. Who’s the delicate snowflake now, huh? you’re probably thinking. I’m telling you: your failure to acknowledge this miscalculation and adjust your approach has delivered the country to Trump.” A similar argument is this, but which makes a lot of good points about the party’s cockiness: https://medium.com/@trentlapinski/dear-democrats-read-this-if-you-do-not-understand-why-trump-won-5a0cdb13c597#.y7zpo06d1).

I was for Bernie, who was populist, like Trump, but populism  can be either right or left (separate dimensions), but has become more associated with the far right brand, of Trump. I didn’t feel like bothering to vote for Hillary, and figured Trump was discrediting himself more and more as the time drew near. Just last night he was quoted as saying “If I lose, you’ll never see me again”, sounding like a childish “sore loser” even before the votes were being counted. I thought that might be the final wake up call regarding his character. But since my wife wanted to vote, I went, and figured I might as well too. I had mulled writing in Bernie, but what would that really prove, so I might as well cast my vote for Hillary. (So now, I can feel safe assured that I had no part in the responsibility for whatever is to befall us now).
They seemed to run neck and neck, and certain states seeming to go to one, but then falling to the other. But by 10-11PM, his numbers suddenly began getting bigger, and he was grabbing Florida, North Carolina and Michigan, which were really needed to win. So we went to bed, not sure what we would hear when we awoke. I still thought she might snag it as the final results came in. Surely, the country would never really elect such a virtual madman. But sure enough, when I got up, around 6:30 and turned on the internet, he had done it!

So here are several articles, videos and memes on this shocking turn of events:

AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-donald-trump

Donald Trump The Change Agent Won By Vowing To Stop Change

America has its first radical reactionary leader. Now what?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-change-won_us_5822c53ce4b0e80b02cdefa3

Hillary Clinton’s Weakness

She had been in power and prominence so long, and, as everyone knew, she was the very embodiment of a political establishment that most voters — and not just Trump supporters — have come to despise in recent years.

The US has elected its most dangerous leader. We all have plenty to fear

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/donald-trump-us-president-nightmare

America Elected A Man Who Said ‘Grab Them By The P***y’ Over The First Female President
It really happened.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-wins_us_582296a9e4b0e80b02cdcc8a

Here Is What Donald Trump Wants To Do In His First 100 Days

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

Trump Elected President, Thanks to 4 in 5 White Evangelicals

Dramatic election ends with historic victory for Donald Trump.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/november/trump-elected-president-thanks-to-4-in-5-white-evangelicals.html

President Trump: Now What For the Church?

http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/11/09/president-trump-now-church

Huge Margin Among Working-Class Whites Lifts Trump to a Stunning Election Upset

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/huge-margin-working-class-whites-lifts-trump-stunning/story?id=43411948

‘This was a whitelash’: Van Jones’ take on the election results

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/van-jones-results-disappointment-cnntv/index.html

This Election Has Completely Debunked The Myth Of A ‘Post-Racial’ America

Donald Trump has emboldened racists to new heights.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/this-election-has-completely-debunked-the-myth-of-a-post-racial-america_us_5821e158e4b0d9ce6fbea7f8

It’s Our Fault: Donald Trump Is The President We Deserve

We should be appalled, but we should not be surprised.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/its-our-fault-donald-trump-is-the-president-we-deserve_us_58234923e4b044f827a795c6

Dear Trump Supporter – A Message From American Minorities

http://shows.huffingtonpost.com/video/dear-trump-supporter-a-message-from-american-minorities-58230bdf869ea9683c401857
http://shows.huffingtonpost.com/b3980d43-2fbd-4b94-8ef8-8f6fdc7a632e

Nobody Called This Election Quite Like Michael Moore

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/11/nobody-called-this-election-quite-like-michael-moo.html

 The Founding Fathers ensured that rural white votes count more than others

Blame the electoral college, among other things.

https://thinkprogress.org/the-founding-fathers-ensured-that-rural-white-votes-count-more-than-others-3c0a341f2aff#.e76mf4ksf

Here’s a conservative video explaining the good intentions of the system:

https://www.prageru.com/courses/political-science/do-you-understand-electoral-college

But on the flipside of the “tyranny of the majority”, is the tyranny of an agitated minority against a “silent majority”:

http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2016/10/18/thank-lucky-stars-live-indirect-democracy/inquiries/trade-winds


Tim Wise, November 9 at 5:47pm:

In case you’re still inclined to believe Trump’s win was simply about working class hardscrabble whites ignored by the system…this wasn’t a class revolt. It was a racial and ethno-cultural one dressed up as a “salt of the earth” rebellion…

(On Philip Yancey’s Facebook discussion post about the election https://www.facebook.com/PhilipYancey/photos/a.430130023698153.101173.118057118238780/1311468422230971):

Jay Merritt Four years ago, the Mormon religion was on the Billy Graham website under the category of CULT. Then Mitt Romney became the candidate for the Republicans. Franklin Graham had a meeting with Romney. Suddenly, the cult status was removed, and Graham threw his quiet support of Romney behind the campaign.

This time, Graham had a rather public meeting in June with Trump and a few hundred hand picked Evangelicals. And they threw their support behind the Trump campaign, disguised as a push for Values, sidestepping Trumps character.

Waiting to see if the Billy Graham website will redefine character, and repentance.

Maurice Infinite (someone I grew up with, and now connected on Facebook)

Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:46pm·

I never thought I’d see a black President in my lifetime. I’m glad for that. He did a great job and made us all proud (all of us intelligent humans). He was dignified every step of the way and is an example of what a leader should be. His grace under fire instilled fear in his detractors. Trump’s only genius is realizing that this fear was real to a large group of disenfranchised, uneducated, and misled people and capitalizing on it effectively. He became a leader of a herd of sheep with no shepherd.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” – Sun Tzu

The Democrats didn’t respect their enemy. They under estimated him. Even more important, they overestimated themselves. Elitism and entitlement is what lost this election. You can’t under estimate an enemy that has nothing to lose.

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.” – Sun Tzu

Trump played dumb. If you notice… his victory speech was coherent and calculated. Unlike any other speech he’s made during this election process. He played the Democrats and the Republicans. His been planning this for 20 years. He’s been invited to dinners, shook hands, donated money… all the while he was studying his enemy.

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” – Sun Tzu

Respect it. Don’t fear it. Learn from it. Don’t repeat it.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-trump